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Does unburied Tradition pull Modern astrology back?
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Boris



Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Moscow

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:01 am    Post subject: Does unburied Tradition pull Modern astrology back? Reply with quote

I am curious about the current
ARHAT and Robert Schmidt's activities.

Recently I came across this statement by Robert Schmidt:

"...our intention is to rid ourselves of the burden of the Greeks. It is very hard to get free of the Greeks. It is very hard to do that scientifically, mathematically, philosophically and also astrolo-gically. The Greeks haunt us. They always have. One might say that the reason they haunt us is that we have never given them a decent burial. Their ghosts are ever present, and even if we don't know it, Greek principles and Greek thinking are always pulling our strings in ways that we are not always aware of. Our intention is to become aware of how those ancient dead Greeks are in fact pulling our strings."

Any comments?
And did Rob succeed in cleaning modern astrological thinking?
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Greeks are in us. They always will be. I donít know if there is a need to purge them, but we should maybe learn to set them aside occasionally. Schmidt has made an enormous contribution to astrology and is probably one of the best things to happen to astrology in a long time. However, I find him to often be rather sour and overly critical. Perhaps an overly critical Schmidt is trying to purge his own excess of Greekness.

I have been wanting to bring back the excitement of astrology that I had when I first started studying it at 13 years of age. I remember reading and doing my hand-drawn charts outside on warm summer evenings with a fresh breeze blowing. I remember looking at the sky on cold winter nights. Now I am a good Greek and sit around thinking about it.

There are occasional calls to astrologers to return to the source: Go outside and experience your environment! Then use your Greek skills to describe, understand and communicate what you have seen and felt.


Last edited by ### on Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HoraryQueen



Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 104

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

If for nothing else I think at the very least we must respect them as Euro 2004 football champions!

Razz
_________________
Susan,
Edinburgh.
www.horaryqueen.co.uk
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Boris



Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Moscow

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Kirk and Queen!

[If for nothing else I think at the very least we must respect them as Euro 2004 football champions!

Strong argument Tongue Out Tongue Out

though this time Greeks employed German thinking Leery

Quote:
Schmidt has made an enormous contribution to astrology and is probably one of the best things to happen to astrology in a long time. However, I find him to often be rather sour and overly critical. Perhaps an overly critical Schmidt is trying to purge his own excess of Greekness.


Kirk, yes, Schmidt's contribution is outstanding,
however
the point is that the Hindsight's goal appeared to be rather controversial to put it mildly.
I 'd like to hear what the initiators of the project can say about their venture now , after 12 years of struggling through historical texts.
Do you know any links?

Quote:

have been wanting to bring back the excitement of astrology that I had when I first started studying it at 13 years of age. I remember reading and doing my hand-drawn charts outside on warm summer evenings with a fresh breeze blowing.


Oh, you read my most intimate dreams Secret

If this is what Greeks in us call for , I stay with my Greekness for a while Razz
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Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3464
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't understand Schmidt's statement in light of what I heard Rob Hand say about Project Hindsight's purpose. Keep in mind, I heard this several years after Hand and Schmidt parted ways.

Hand said the purpose of Hindsight was to resurect Greek (and medieval) astrology and put these forgotten techniques to the test. Hand wished to incorporate what was valuable into a contemporary framework. To this end I heard Hand describe himself as "A medieval astrologer, who uses Hellenistic when it doesn't conflict with the medieval; and I use the outer planets."

What does Schmidt mean when he says "rid outselves of the Greeks?" Why would we want to do that? If he wants to rid himself of Greek influnce why not study Oriental philosophy? I don't understand why one would study them so intently to rid oneself of their influence. Ignore them unless one needs to know exactly what to ignore.

I would appreciate a link to this quote, as I'l like to see it in full context. It seems so out of place with what Schmidt has done and continues to do.

Tom
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Boris



Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Moscow

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Tom

a link to my quote:

http://cura.free.fr/decem/09schmi2.html

"Plan " chapter

Are you familiar with the most latest publications by R.Schmidt?
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3464
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Boris,

OK Now I get it. I printed out that article (I think it was the transcript of a talk) a while ago, so I revisted it. Schmidt isn't arguing to simply abandon the Greeks as this next sentence shows:

Quote:
So we don't want to simply admire and return to an ancient time. We would like to take the ancient writings, understand them on their own terms, and from their own presuppositions, and get out of them what we can get out of them. And then, bury them so we can be free from them at last.


This is more in line with what Hand was saying. Schmidt doesn't want us to become slaves to the Greeks and Greek astrology. He thinks much of what ancient Greeks thought is not really relevant to 21st century Western society. Therefore, figure out what they were doing and apply that to our time; then bury them. That is a whole other issue.

I've read the newest things he's posted on his website. I find Hellenistic astrology fascinating, and if I weren't already studying in other areas of tradtional astrology, I might jump at this. There is only so much time however.

I love his synopsis of the history of astrology so much that I will quote it below:


Quote:
The best evidence seems to indicate that astrology began with the Babylonians some time during or before the 5th c. B.C.E. It quickly spread to Egypt, Persia, and India. Around 200 B.C.E. the astrology developing in Egypt was translated into Greek and made available to the Mediterranean peoples, resulting in a tremendous flowering of astrology during the Hellenistic era that lasted up until the 6th c. C.E. Beginning in the 9th c., the fundamental Greek astrological texts from Hellenistic times were translated into Arabic. The Arabs also drew directly on Persian and Indian sources and compounded these with the Hellenistic material. In the 13th and 14th centuries, many Arabic astrological texts were translated into Medieval Latin. As we enter the Renaissance, a revisionist attitude set in, and many astrologers attempted to purge the Arabic-style astrology of the Latin west of its Arabic influence using the Greek astrological writings of Ptolemy as the paradigm of a "rational" astrology, unwittingly throwing out much of the legitimate Hellenistic tradition at the same time. Toward the end of the 17th c. astrology begins to fade out. It barely survives for a couple of centuries until we get up to modern times in the 20th century, where we have a kind of astrological revival which is based originally on just little scraps of astrological knowledge that have managed to survive through the intervening centuries. This revival is conducted virtually in ignorance of all the earlier astrological texts except for Ptolemy, and even he is poorly understood.


This is as good a one-paragraph history of astrology as you'll find.

I also wish to applaud Kirk for this quote
:

Quote:
I find him to often be rather sour and overly critical.


"Sour" what a great choice of words. I was particularly pleased to see that Kirk is an American or at least lives in the US. The escriptive word "sour" is precise and something I tend to expect from the British who seem to have more repect for our language than Americans do. Well done. I wish I had thought of it.

Tom
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I was particularly pleased to see that Kirk is an American or at least lives in the US.

Tom,
Born in North Dakota, raised in Oregon, and at home when listening to the British.

Boris,
Someone else who has felt the magic!

Tom and Boris,
I am enjoying your discussion, but am not able to contribute much at this point. I am at the stage of comprehending the complexity of the topic: rather than a simple division of modern and pre-modern astrology, there is an accretion of concepts pasted together over time. Assumptions of linear development are incorrect. Schmidt, Hand and others deserve our thanks and praise for pointing this out.

Are either of you familiar with Curtis Manwaring and his website, zodiac-x-files.com? He has developed a Hellenistic astrology software called Delphic Oracle which is based on the work of Schmidt. There is a 30 day free trial. I would like to hear from anyone who has tried it. I have been tempted for some time but havenít allowed myself to fly off to Hellas before strengthening my knowledge home base.
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Boris



Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Moscow

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom!
Quote:
He thinks much of what ancient Greeks thought is not really relevant to 21st century Western society.


I wonder if he managed to demonstrate how precisely outdated concepts of Greeks had modified their astrological procedures.
And what are these procedures and techniques we should get rid of??? Sick

Quote:
I've read the newest things he's posted on his website.

Please, Tom give me the link!

Kirk, absolutely:

Assumptions of linear development are incorrect. Schmidt, Hand and others deserve our thanks and praise for pointing this out.

As to Delphic Oracle I have tried it but ... still am Solar Fire fan Leery
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3464
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Boris

Schmidt's New website is: http://www.projecthindsight.com/

Unfortunately his old website had a coupleof articles, Facets of Fate was one of them and I don't think they are still online.

Tom
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Boris



Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Moscow

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Tom!

Ok, Rob Schmidt changed his mind Confused .

Hope this has nothing to do with the following: Sick

Quote:
Ellen Black supplied the initial funding necessary to obtain equipment and texts. The translations were published by The Golden Hind Press. As owners of the press, Robert Schmidt and Ellen Black had the sole financial responsibility for the project and frequently subsidized it out of their own resources... In October of 1998, they officially embedded the research arm of Project Hindsight in the PHASER Foundation, in the hopes of obtaining additional funding for this research in the form of grants and donations


Would be great to read something about Rob Schmidt.
I heard he has academic background (?)
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to throw this thought out into the mix as it seemed relevant...
it seems to me that the more of traditional texts and information I uncover the more expanded my astrological experience becomes, not limiting, but more freeing... I have had so many aha moments since discovering the more traditional methods of chart interpretaion and reading, such as lilly... Shocked Tongue Out

granny
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Boris



Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Moscow

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, granny!
Could you please tell me what ancient techniques you have found most helpful.
How can you explain Rob Hand's note that Lilly was a poor natal astrologer?
thank you
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How can you explain Rob Hand's note that Lilly was a poor natal astrologer?


Hand must have been having a bad day. By no means was Lilly a "poor" natal astrologer. He made mistakes, sure, but so has everyone else. In fact very few if any astrologers have put so much of themselves and their work in print as Lilly has. The bulk of the ancient texts have lots of dos and don'ts, but precious few examples. Not so for Lilly.

I don't think it is possible to achieve in horary astrology the level that Lilly achieved and remain poor in natal or any other type of astrology. Furthermore, I believe Mr. Hand made this comment several years ago before he studied much of Lilly's natal work. I wonder if he still holds the same opinion? I've been to a couple of workshops given by Rob Hand and in the last one at least, he made some highly complimentary remarks about Lilly's natal work.

Tom
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Boris



Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Moscow

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,Tom!
Quote:
I don't think it is possible to achieve in horary astrology the level that Lilly achieved and remain poor in natal or any other type of astrology

In fact horary and natal specializations very rarely go together.
Given the reliability of birthtimes in 17th century was quite low, it's natural for those astrologers to focus on horary.

Tom, what do you consider the most valuable of traditional approaches? Secret

Can you provide examples of perfect perfomance of traditional method in contrast to modern techniques' failure?
Confused

thanks
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