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Al-Andarzagar On Triplicity Lords
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:38 am    Post subject: Al-Andarzagar On Triplicity Lords Reply with quote

Although I find this triplicity lord usage quite interesting, I have problems using it because of it's "antiquity" if I may say so. Is there any modern version of this?

For instance if we read about he 5th house = “Allendezgod said that the first lord of the triplicity of the house of children signifies children and life, the second delight, but the third embassies.”

Delight? Embassies? Shocked

Or the 6th = Sixth House — “Allendezgod said that the first lord of the triplicity of the house of infirmities signifies infirmities and bad health because of infirmities, from evil circumstances, and injurious wounds; the second lord signifies house servants and servants in general; the third lord signifies what will happen because of these and their usefulness and works; and it is the significator of beasts and cattle and of all four-footed animals, their strength, also their multitude or fewness, also their staying in his possession [lit. ‘hand’] or going out of it.

I might modernize this to 1st lord = illness, 2nd lord = employees, 3rd lord, well not sure about this one yet... Sad




james
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He seems to be assigning the various meanings of the houses to the triplicity rulers instead of the more common thirds of life.

So the 5th house is the house of children as well as the house of pleasure. Each gets a triplicity ruler. Deb gives Ambassadors as a meaning of the 5th in mundane astrology. It's a resource of the local government.

The sixth has to do with diseases, infirmities or accidents. So the first triplicity Lord governs that. The 6th also has to do with servants so the second Lord covers that. Then he assigns the third triplicity ruler of the 6th to how these things affect the native, plus animals including those larger than a goat.

It's a different use of the triplicity rulers than the medieval Arabs thought up.

Tom
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some do not understand the assignement of embassies and related subjects to the 5th, but I believe that the relation of embassadors to the 5th find it's ground on the fact that there is the house of joy to Venus.

An embassador is an emissary for negotiation and union, it's characteristics are similar to the act of seducing, and moreover, he is a diplomat. Which characteristic is more venusian than peacefull agreement?
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Levente Laszlo



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are various meanings associated with each house, and, consequently, the information regarding different topics should often be drawn from the same planetary significators. It may certainly cause some problem which can only avoided if an astrologer employs a second layer of significators: these can be planets having natural association with the very topic or any specially devised lots. Both of these solutions were widely employed from the Hellenistic age, but perhaps al-Andarzaghar, who apparently lived between Buzurjmihr (6th century) and Māshā’allāh (8th century), felt a new system might be developed.

Although the genethliacal work of al-Andarzaghar is inextant, al-Qabīṣī preserves his unique opinion of using triplicities. I quote the translation from the Burnett–Yamamoto–Yano edition with the only difference that I changed “place” to “house” with the Arabic and Latin version.

al-Qabīṣī wrote:
For the first house, whose beginning rises from the eastern horizon, is called the ascendant (…) Al-Andarzaghar said in his Nativities, that the first lord of the triplicity of the ascendant indicates the life and the nature of the native and of the querist, his pleasure and desire, what he likes and dislike, and what he obtains of good and bad at the beginning of his life. The second lord of the triplicity indicates life, body, strength and the middle of life. The third lord of the triplicity indicates what the [first] two lords of the [place] indicate and the end of the matter (in the Latin version: life) at death.


In the case of the first house it is absolutely clear that the first, second and third triplicity lords have signification on the first, second and third part of human life, respectively. Moreover, the Hellenistic distinction in using diurnal/nocturnal and participant lords of a trigon seems to have disappeared from Sassanian astrology, as it is already apparent from the ‘Umar translation of Dorotheus.

This temporal logic seems to be adapted by al-Andarzaghar when he discusses other houses:

al-Qabīṣī wrote:
The fifth is the house of children, joy, eating and drinking, messengers and gifts (…) Al-Andarzaghar said: the first lord of the triplicity of the house of children indicates children and life, the second pleasure, the third messengers.


While it would be arduous to start a detailed investigation on the change of house meanings, I must remark that PFN can be right saying that these meanings might come from an explanation of the Venerean character of this house. At least, the meanings of the 5th which can be gleaned from Dorotheus and Valens are very meagre. A kind of temporal sequence, however, is discernible here, as it is the case for the 6th house also:

al-Qabīṣī wrote:
The sixth is the house of illness, slaves and slave-girls (…) Al-Andarzaghar said: the first lord of the triplicity of the house of illness indicates illness and recovery from afflictions, the second white and black slaves, and the third what he receives from them, their importance, and their sturdiness, whether they are many or few, and whether he keeps them or they run away; and prisons and confinements.


The Latin translation of al-Qabīṣī by John of Seville, which misreads the name of al-Andarzaghar as “Alendezgoz”, was later utilized by Bonatti and others, so it represents a legitimate Medieval tradition, no matter how idiosyncratic should it look. Of course, its value is an entirely different question.
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:
Some do not understand the assignement of embassies and related subjects to the 5th, but I believe that the relation of embassadors to the 5th find it's ground on the fact that there is the house of joy to Venus.

An embassador is an emissary for negotiation and union, it's characteristics are similar to the act of seducing, and moreover, he is a diplomat. Which characteristic is more venusian than peacefull agreement?


With all due respect PFN, it is not that I don't understand the assignement of embassies and related subjects [to the 5th]; I am aware of Venus' joy; I was just wondering if people around here were using a modern view of this triplicity lord usage. Subjects and questions about emissaries and embassies don't come up that often in my practice.

Osthanes wrote:
The Latin translation of al-Qabīṣī by John of Seville, which misreads the name of al-Andarzaghar as “Alendezgoz”, was later utilized by Bonatti and others, so it represents a legitimate Medieval tradition, no matter how idiosyncratic should it look. Of course, its value is an entirely different question.


I think you may be right concerning it's value. Thanks Osthanes for the wake up call.

james
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dr. farr



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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osthanes, thank you for the excellence of your posts! Always informative, always based upon precise, referenced historical sources. The information you provide is always useful!
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jerd wrote:
With all due respect PFN, it is not that I don't understand the assignement of embassies and related subjects [to the 5th]; I am aware of Venus' joy; I was just wondering if people around here were using a modern view of this triplicity lord usage. Subjects and questions about emissaries and embassies don't come up that often in my practice.


In this case, seems that I was the one that misunderstood. But I do not believe that even if you modernize to some extent this technique, you'd be able to add any other meaning to "emissaries and embassies". At best, that would be usefull in mundane, which is more likely that this assignement is more relevant to... unless your problem is simply with the terminology used.
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Levente Laszlo



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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jerd wrote:
Subjects and questions about emissaries and embassies don't come up that often in my practice.


Well, I would say the same, adding many other areas like military affairs or feasts, but it was really a topic of inquiries. There is a book called The Book of Nine Judges which is a collection of sayings of nine venerated astrologers on various horary questions. It was discernibly edited and translated by Hugo of Santalla (and, as a result, its language is rather repulsive) and contains some expert opinion on legations. Two of them, ‘Umar and “Aristoteles” (probably Māshā’allāh) utilizes 5th house when answers questions that pertain to sending emissaries and receiving them back. In these techniques Moon appears to be an important important factor (as is the case in each vagrant), whose role is perceptibly increasing for the third expert, al-Kindī who belongs to a younger generation. Nevertheless, the importance of this topic might have waned later, as in Ibn Abī r-Rijāl there are only two short chapters about it, providing substantially the same information that was developed some two centuries earlier.

Dr. Farr, thank you for your appreciation. However, oftentimes my proofs are missing like in the case of dating al-Andarzaghar. Wink
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astroart



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Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Dr. Farr, thank you for your appreciation. However, oftentimes my proofs are missing like in the case of dating al-Andarzaghar.


According to prof.Pingree al-Andarzaghar lived in the Sasanian period(224-637 AD):
"The one Persian astrologer of the Sassanian period besides Buzurjmihr to whom Arabic authors frequently refer-they, of course, thought Zaradusht and Jamasp were much earlier-was al- Andarzaghar, that is, the advisor (from Pahlavi handarzgar), a scholar named Zadanfarrukh."("Classical and Byzantine Astrology in Sassanian Persia", David Pingree ,Dumbarton Oaks Papers, Vol. 43. (1989) p.235)

According to prof.Burnett he may be lived after the Sasanian period:
"It is possible that Andarzaghar himself is post-Sasanid since at one point(17.12) he refers to the pilgrimage(al-hajj)."("Zadanfarrukh al-Andarzaghar on anniversary horoscopes", Charles Burnett and Ahmed al-Hamdi, Zeitschrift fuer Geschichte der Arabisch-Islamischen Wissenschaften, Frankfurt am Main, 1984, p.295)
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###



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Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
. . . it is not that I don't understand the assignement of embassies and related subjects [to the 5th]; I am aware of Venus' joy . . .


I don't think Venus has anything to do with emissaries and ambassadors being signified by the 5th house. Tom was correct in writing “Deb gives Ambassadors as a meaning of the 5th in mundane astrology. It's a resource of the local government.

Here's Deb on the 4th house in mundane astrology:
Quote:
The town or city in question and its governor. ... In war charts, any town or city under attack.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h4.html

The succeedent houses signify the resources of the preceding angle and persons are among those resources. For example, here's Deb on the 2nd house:
Quote:
In lawsuits: friends, assistants, witnesses and those who act as a resource for the prosecution.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h2.html

The 4th signified the land, the clan or tribe, the city or local government. The ambassador or emissary served and represented that group or government, so he was signified by the 5th. Of course, over time the nation and its central government replaced the city.
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think my opinion is highly significant here, but since its been mentioned I should probably point out that there are a number of places in my book where I suggest that planetary joys have either reflected or developed house meanings. For example, p.38ff where I demonstrate how many 5th house themes "love, sex, fertility and pregnancy, gifts, parties and pleasure, play, recreation, drinking (self-indulgence) and gambling (or gaming), and diplomats and embassadors and agents, etc..." show a natural association with the Venusian theme. We can also include sport, which is traditionally associated with Venus (the word 'jousting' meaning a playful war).

The 5th house and Venus is particularly interesting, because Manilius associated the 10th house, not the 5th, with Venus; and his description of the 5th house shows no association with these Venusian themes, whilst his description of the 10th shows strong connections to the ancient view of Venus - the Marriage torch, the mother, applause and success, etc.

However, one thing I tried to stress in my book is that no single philosophy explains the associations, as the meanings are those that adhere across a number of relevant factors, including, for example, angularity, dirunal revolution, aspectual relationships, associated signs, etc.

I didn't make much of the triplicity-related significations in my book. I was aware of them and sometimes wish now that I had, but when I spoke and published on this in the early 90s the ideas were extremely controversial, and off the radar for most astrologers, who seemed to be emotionally attached to the view that house meanings are purely representative of the associated signs and planets. I used to get a hostile reaction when I first presented the ideas which, fortunately, I don't get at all now (at least on this subject Smile)
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding Venus and ambassadors it is always a good idea to take into consideration the essence of a planet. Venus and diplomacy is a natural.

Tom
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James E.



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Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steven wrote:
I actually have a few I could relate but I'll take my own chart for one,

I have lord of the 9th, Saturn in its terms, in the 5th joined to the Moon, Almuten of the Ascendant there. I was a missionary for 20 years. That is an ambassador Smile

Steven


Indeed it is Steven. Indeed it is. Thumbs up


Tell me Steven, when you say:
Quote:
I have Virgo on the 5th and my chart is nocturnal, Mars is then the third triplicity ruler. Mars is in Capricorn the sign of the 9th house!


By the "sign of the 9th house" do you mean the 9th by counting?


And here, when you say:
Quote:
Mars also just happens to be the Lord of Spirit and falls in an angle of Fortune which is in the sign of the 3rd, Cancer, and is concerned with "religious practice".


Again when you say, "which is in the sign of the 3rd", do you mean the 3rd by counting?

I ask this because I am wondering if we should use whole sign rather than quadrant division with this method. I have started to go over clients charts using houses by division and by counting; too early yet for results.

I was still scratching my head on this subject when I found the following:http://www.kozmic-kitchen.com/opus/literature/astrologytarotandrunes/ibn/ibn.html which gives one some food for thought.

Thank you all for your feedback

james
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Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For example, p.38ff where I demonstrate how many 5th house themes "love, sex, fertility and pregnancy, gifts, parties and pleasure, play, recreation, drinking (self-indulgence) and gambling (or gaming), and diplomats and embassadors and agents, etc..." show a natural association with the Venusian theme.

And:
Quote:
Venus and diplomacy is a natural.


But then Mercury and the Moon are also naturals with their participation in communication, contact, negotiation and connection through travel. Jupiter, the big guy of moderation (and with esoteric connections to tempering – blending) might even be one to consider. I can see us making a strong case for any of those if we had inherited a system which had one of them rejoicing in the 5th.

I think the 5th was chosen for ambassadors and emissaries due to it being succeedent to the 4th, with the consideration of Venus' joy being perhaps a satisfying coincidental embellishment.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But then Mercury and the Moon are also naturals with their participation in communication, contact, negotiation and connection through travel.


True and Mercury is considered the natural significator for ambassadors.

Tom
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