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Oversimplification of Elemental Trigon Rulerships?

 
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Oversimplification of Elemental Trigon Rulerships? Reply with quote

Good afternoon,

In various astrology computer software programmes, one often finds the elemental trigon rulerships reduced to the scheme 'Day - Night - Participating'. For each category, a maximum of one planet each is possible. Is this scheme really adequate to properly reflect Klaudios Ptolomaios' system of trigon rulerships stated in Book I, Section 18, Of the Triangles, especially concerning the Water Trigon?

Here is the ancient Greek text:

Quote:
Περὶ τριγώνων Ἡ δὲ πρὸς τὰ τρίγωνα συνοικείωσις τοιαύτη τις οὖσα τυγχάνει. ἐπειδὴ γὰρ τὸ τρίγωνον καὶ ἰσόπλευρον σχῆμα συμφωνότατόν ἐστιν ἑαυτῷ καὶ ὁ ζωδιακὸς ὑπὸ τριῶν κύκλων ὁρίζεται, τοῦ τε ἰσημερινοῦ καὶ τῶν δύο τροπικῶν, διαιρεῖται δὲ τὰ ιβ αὐτοῦ μέρη εἰς τρίγωνα ἰσόπλευρα δ, τὸ μὲν πρῶτον, ὅ ἐστι διά τε τοῦ Κριοῦ καὶ τοῦ Λέοντος καὶ τοῦ Τοξότου, ἐκ τριῶν ἀρρενικῶν ζῳδίων συγκείμενον, καὶ οἴκους ἔχον ἡλίου τε καὶ Ἄρεως καὶ Διός, ἐδόθη τῷ ἡλίῳ καὶ Διὶ παρὰ τὴν αἵρεσιν τὴν ἡλιακὴν ὄντος τοῦ Ἄρεως. λαμβάνει δὲ αὐτοῦ τὴν πρώτην οἰκοδεσποτίαν ἡμέρας μὲν ὁ ἥλιος, νυκτὸς δὲ ὁ τοῦ Διός, καὶ ἔστιν ὁ μὲν Κριὸς μᾶλλον πρὸς τῷ ἰσημερινῷ, ὁ δὲ Λέων μᾶλλον [p. 84] πρὸς τῷ θερινῷ, ὁ δὲ Τοξότης πρὸς τῷ χειμερινῷ. γίνεται δὲ καὶ προηγουμένως μὲν τοῦτο τὸ τρίγωνον βόρειον, διὰ τὴν τοῦ Διὸς συνοικοδεσποτίαν, ἐπειδήπερ οὗτος γόνιμός τέ ἐστι καὶ πνευματώδης οἰκείως τοῖς ἀπὸ τῶν ἄρκτων ἀνέμοις. διὰ δὲ τὸν τοῦ Ἄρεως οἶκον λαμβάνει μῖξιν τοῦ λιβὸς καὶ συνίσταται βορρολιβυκόν, ἐπειδήπερ ὁ τοῦ Ἄρεως τοιούτων ἐστὶ πνευμάτων ποιητικός, διά τε τὴν τῆς σελήνης αἵρεσιν καὶ τὸ τῶν δυσμῶν τεθηλυσμένον. Τό τε δεύτερον τρίγωνον, ὅ ἐστι διά τε τοῦ Ταύρου καὶ Παρθένου καὶ Αἰγόκερω, συγκείμενον ἐκ τριῶν θηλυκῶν, ἀκολούθως ἐδόθη σελήνῃ τε καὶ Ἀφροδίτῃ, οἰκοδεσποτούσης αὐτοῦ νυκτὸς μὲν τῆς σελήνης, ἡμέρας δὲ τοῦ τῆς Ἄφροδίτης. καὶ ἔστιν ὁ μὲν Ταῦρος πρὸς τῷ θερινῷ κύκλῳ μᾶλλον, ἡ δὲ Παρθένος πρὸς τῷ ἰσημερινῷ, ὁ δὲ Αἰγόκερως πρὸς τῷ χειμερινῷ. γίνεται δὲ καὶ τοῦτο τὸ τρίγωνον προηγουμένως μὲν νότιον διὰ τὴν τῆς Ἀφροδίτης οἰκοδεσποτίαν, ἐπειδήπερ ὁ ἀστὴρ οὗτος τῶν ὁμοίων ἐστὶ πνευμάτων διὰ τὸ θερμὸν καὶ ἔνικμον τῆς δυνάμεως ποιητικός. προσλαβὼν δὲ μῖξιν ἀπηλιώτου διὰ τὸ τὸν τοῦ Κρόνου οἶκον ἐν αὐτῷ τυγχάνειν τὸν Αἰγόκερων συνίσταται καὶ αὐτὸ νοταπηλιωτικὸν κατ̓ ἀντίθεσιν τοῦ πρώτου, ἐπειδήπερ καὶ ὁ τοῦ Κρόνου τοιούτων ἐστὶ πνευμάτων ποιητικὸς οἰκειούμενος καὶ αὐτὸς ταῖς ἀνατολαῖς διὰ τὴν πρὸς τὸν ἥλιον αἵρεσιν. [p. 86] Τὸ δὲ τρίτον τρίγωνον ὅ ἐστι τὸ διά τε Διδύμων καὶ Χηλῶν καὶ Ὑδροχόου, ἐκ τριῶν ἀρρενικῶν ζῳδίων συγκείμενον, καὶ πρὸς μὲν τὸν τοῦ Ἄρεως μηδένα λόγον ἔχον, πρὸς δὲ τὸν τοῦ Κρόνου καὶ τὸν τοῦ Ἑρμοῦ διὰ τοὺς οἴκους, τούτοις ἀπενεμήθη, πάλιν οἰκοδεσποτοῦντος ἡμέρας μὲν τοῦ Κρόνου διὰ τὴν αἵρεσιν, νυκτὸς δὲ τοῦ Ἑρμοῦ. καὶ ἔστι τὸ μὲν τῶν Διδύμων δωδεκατημόριον πρὸς τῷ θερινῷ, τὸ δὲ τῶν Χηλῶν πρὸς τῷ ἰσημερινῷ, τὸ δὲ τοῦ Ὑδροχόου πρὸς τῷ χειμερινῷ. συνίσταται δὲ καὶ τοῦτο τὸ τρίγωνον προηγουμένως μὲν ἀπηλιωτικὸν διὰ τὸν τοῦ Κρόνου: κατὰ δὲ τὴν μῖξιν βορραπηλιωτικὸν διὰ τὴν τοῦ Διὸς αἵρεσιν τῷ τοῦ Κρόνου πρὸς τὸ τὸν ἡμερινὸν λόγον συνοικειοῦσθαι. Τὸ δὲ τέταρτον τρίγωνον, ὅ ἐστι διά τε Καρκίνου καὶ Σκορπίου καὶ Ἰχθύων, κατελείφθη μὲν λοιπῷ ὄντι τῷ τοῦ Ἄρεως καὶ λόγον ἔχοντι πρὸς αὐτὸ διὰ τὸν οἶκον τὸν Σκορπίον: συνοικοδεσποτοῦσι δὲ αὐτῷ διά τε τὴν αἵρεσιν καὶ τὸ θηλυκὸν τῶν ζῳδίων νυκτὸς μὲν ἡ σελήνη, ἡμέρας δὲ ὁ τῆς Ἀφροδίτης, καὶ ἔστιν ὁ μὲν Καρκίνος πρὸς τῷ θερινῷ κύκλῳ, ὁ δὲ Σκορπίος πρὸς τῷ χειμερινῷ μᾶλλον, οἱ δὲ Ιχθῦς πρὸς τῷ ἰσημερινῷ. καὶ τοῦτο δὲ τὸ τρίγωνον συνίσταται προηγουμένως μὲν λιβυκὸν διὰ τὴν τοῦ Ἄρεως καὶ τῆς σελήνης οἰκοδεσποτίαν, κατὰ μῖξιν δὲ νοτολιβυκὸν διὰ τὴν τῆς Ἀφροδίτης οἰκοδεσποτίαν. [p. 88]


Here is Professor Frank Robbin's English translation:

Quote:
"Of the Triangles.

The familiarity by triangles is as follows. Inasmuch as the triangular and equilateral form is most harmonious with itself, 92 the zodiac also is bounded by three circles, the equinoctial and the two tropics, and its twelve parts are divided into four equilateral triangles. The first of these, which passes through Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius, is composed of three masculine signs and includes the houses of the sun, of Mars, and of Jupiter. This triangle was assigned to the sun and Jupiter, since Mars is not of the solar sect. 93 The sun assumes first governance of it by day and Jupiter by night. Also, Aries is close to the equinoctial circle, Leo to the summer solstice and Sagittarius to the winter solstice. This triangle is preëminently northern because of Jupiter's share in its government, since Jupiter is fecund and windy, 94 similarly to the winds from the north. However, because of the house of Mars it suffers an admixture of the south-west wind 95 and is constituted Borrolibycon, because Mars causes such winds and also because of the sect of the moon and the feminine quality of the occident. 96

The second triangle, which is the one drawn through Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn, is composed of three feminine signs, and consequently was assigned to the moon and Venus; the moon governs it by night and Venus by day. Taurus lies toward the summer tropic, Virgo toward the equinox, and Capricorn toward the winter tropic. This triangle is made preëminently southern because of the dominance of Venus, since this star through the heat and moisture of its power produces similar winds; but as it receives an admixture of Apeliotes because the house of Saturn, Capricornus, is included within it, it is constituted Notapeliotes 97 in contrast to the first triangle, since Saturn produces winds of this kind and is related to the east through sharing in the sect of the sun.

The third triangle is the one drawn through Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius, composed of three masculine signs, and having no relation to Mars but rather to Saturn and Mercury because of their houses. It was assigned in turn to these, with Saturn governing during the day on account of his sect and Mercury by night. The sign of Gemini lies toward the summer tropic, Libra toward the equinox, and Aquarius toward the winter tropic. This triangle also is primarily of eastern constitution, because the sect of Jupiter has familiarity with Saturn, inasmuch as it is diurnal.

The fourth triangle, which is the one drawn through Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces, was left to the only remaining planet, Mars, which is related to it through his house, Scorpio; and along with him, on account of the sect and the femininity of the signs, the moon by night and Venus by day are co‑rulers. Cancer is near the summer circle, Scorpio lies close the time of winter one, and Pisces to the equinox. This triangle is constituted preëminently western, because it is dominated by Mars and the moon; but by admixture it becomes south-western through the domination of Venus. " (bold emphasis added)


Attempts to press Ptolemy's system into the scheme 'Day - Night - Participating' usually result in:

'Fire: Sun by Day, Jupiter by Night, Mars participating
Earth: Venus by Day, Moon by Night, Saturn participating
Air: Saturn by Day, Mercury by Night, Jupiter participating
Water: Venus by Day, Moon by Night, Mars participating'

In particular, the Water Trigon assignments appear questionable if not mistaken.

Concerning rulers by day and night, Mr William Lilly's assignments seem much closer to Ptolemy's text for the Water Trigon, Mars by Day and Night, than the list just quoted. However, there are neither 'co-rulers' nor 'participants' in Mr Lilly's assignments.

A particular difficulty seems to be the contrast between possible 'participating rulers' of the first three trigons, that are not sect mates but influence nevertheless the wind direction, and the 'co-rulers', sect mates, in the Water Trigon. Hopefully someone fluent in ancient Greek and astrology will tell us to what extent the words and their meanings used to describe the 'participations' of Mars, Saturn and Jupiter in the Fire, Earth and Air Trigons are the same as those used to designate the status of Aphrodité and Séléné in the Water Trigon.

Depending on the outcomes, one might perhaps be inclined NOT to consider Mars, Saturn and Jupiter as 'participants' in the first three trigon rulerships, whilst Venus and Moon might be joint co-rulers with Mars by Day respectively by Night. Astrology software logic is apparently, for the time being, unable to accommodate such an approach to the Water Trigon.

Best regards,

lihin
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Last edited by lihin on Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The table given by MORIN Astrologia Gallica, Book 15, p. 45 (translated by Herschel), and showing Ptolemy's teachings seems to come closer to the text of Ptolemy (at least in the Robbins-translation) than the tabel above - but not in the water trigon:

(first - day-ruler, second - night-ruler, third - participiens):
Fire: Sun - Jupiter
Water: Moon - Venus - Mars
Air: Saturn - Mercury
Earth: Venus - Moon

In the Robbins-translation the Moon and Venus are only CO-rulers (Robbins: "the moon by night and Venus by day are co-rulers.)
Perhaps there are differencies in the Greek texts?

Johannes
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1369
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Oversimplification of Elemental Trigon Rulerships? Reply with quote

Giuseppe Bezza gives a lengthy explication of trigons in his book Commento al primo libro del Tetrabiblos, in the chapter dedicated.

Maybe you can read italian, this is a summary from another astrologer following Bezza's method in English

http://cura.free.fr/decem/09simei.html

I don't see any possibility to set trigons in Astrophasis, I suppose it uses Ptolemy's ones, but i'm not sure.

margherita
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: fixed sign - base of triplicity? Reply with quote

Thank you Margherita for the link - the summary of Bezza's method is very interesting, and helps to make more sense of the Dorothean triplicities (more than Ptolemy's, I'd say). It reminds us to think in terms of a hierarchy of 1st, 2nd and 3rd "rulers" (this may not be the best term), rather than alternatives, with 1st and 2nd reversed according to sect of chart and 3rd independent of sect, and above all, it suggests that "The rulership of a fixed sign has priority over the other signs of each triplicity."

If we we consider each triplicity as based/rooted in its fixed sign (i.e. in Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius - the triplicity scheme may predate the three quadruplicities), the whole Dorothean scheme seems simpler and more logical.

I.e. : each triplicity is rooted in a fixed sign (Ta – Leo – Sco – Aqu)

Positive ("masculine") triplicities have diurnal rulers (Su – Ju – Sa –Mer)
Negative ("feminine") triplicities have nocturnal rulers (Mo – Ve – Ma )
(Mercury can be considered either sectually ambivalent or weakly diurnal – makes no difference)

1st – 2nd -3rd rulers are worked out as follows:
In positive (Leo/Aqu) triplicities in a day chart, 1st = exalted or ruler in the fixed sign of that triplicity, if of diurnal sect (exaltation has priority over rulership)
2nd is the other diurnal dignity in that fixed sign (if any); if not, take diurnal exalted or ruling planet from another sign in the triplicity (exaltation again has priority over rulership)
3rd is the remaining diurnal planet

Reverse 1st and 2nd for nocturnal chart, leaving same participating ruler.

In negative (Tau/Sco) triplicities, same rules but using nocturnal planets and starting with night chart 1st.

So we get the Dorothean rulers for the Taurus/Leo/Scorpio/Aquarius triplicities, in a few relative simple steps, and avoiding talking about elements, which may postdate the triplicities.

Graham
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Excellent short summary Reply with quote

Good evening,

Thank you, Ms Magherita, for the recommendation and the link. The short article by Signor Valerio Simei summarises, methinks, the triangle rulerships quite succinctly. His comments resemble the notes in the French translation of Tetrabiblos i am mostly using. In particular, one sees that Klaudios Ptolemaios' system for the Water Triangle cannot be properly applied in astrology software using the 'Day - Night - Participating' scheme restricted to one planet each. But perhaps other forum members disagree.

Fortunately, i can read Italian. How can one obtain Dr. Giuseppe Bezza's book Commento al primo libro del Tetrabiblos, please?

There are at least two streams of Hellenistic astrological tradition, one of which is represented by Claude Ptolemy, that, it appears, the school Cielo e Terra follows. My humble experience to date is that it makes little sense to attempt to gloss over significant differences amongst authors, periods and schools by simplifying, packaging and marketing them together under generic labels like 'traditional' , 'hermetic' and 'classical'. Instead of clearer, things become even more muddled as soon as one scratches the smooth lacquered surface.

Best regards,

lihin
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Excellent short summary Reply with quote

lihin wrote:


Fortunately, i can read Italian. How can one obtain Dr. Giuseppe Bezza's book Commento al primo libro del Tetrabiblos, please?


lihin


I don't know. Bezza's books tend to be out of stock.... I believe you can try some bookstore (are you from Switzerland, aren't you? ) asking if you can book it.

Anyway it is must. There are tons of references to other authors, it's pity he did not do the same with the rest of Tetrabiblos.

margherita
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lihin



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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: New edition? Reply with quote

Good afternoon,

Meanwhile i have checked a few locations for Italian books in Italy and Switzerland, even specialised sources for astrology books. Alas, not a single copy of Commento al primo libro del Tetrabiblos available!

The book is 486 pages long, about 8 pages of commentary for each page of original Greek text.

Perhaps you, Ms Margherita, and some of yours friends / associates of Cielo e Terra with sufficient charm might convince Dr. Giuseppe Bezze to publish a second, revised edition?

Best regards,

lihin
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