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Yes that was the murderer's justification (or one of those).
MarkC wrote:However, in regards mundane astrology , its not about modern vs traditional. Its about what works and what really doesn't. Thus its a pragmatic issue.
I'd say this should count for any area of astrology, mundane, medical, natal etc.

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Eddy wrote:
I'd say this should count for any area of astrology, mundane, medical, natal etc.
No one does astrology in a vacuum. We all have preferences. You for example have settled on an astrology without houses or signs. My basic approach is traditional but I am open to other techniques. For example, I have used solar arcs. The subject of astrology is so immense we each need to be personally selective. Otherwise we would sitting looking at every chart trying to descide questions like what zodiac?, what house system?, what approach to aspects, should I use outers or not?

So perhaps I need to qualify what I meant by pragmatism. I was suggesting that as forum members we retain an open mind to differing approaches while pursuing the approach we feel most comfortable with. Thus if someone utlising a modern technique (such as solar arcs, midpoints, asteroids, etc) can demonstrate an accurate prediction I will be happy to sit up and pay attention. In the maintime though I would personally prefer to explore traditional techniques. Not least because modern astrology has singularly failed to come up with much accurate prediction on its own and traditional mundane astrology is still largely unexplored.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

18
Didn't Liz Greene predict this too? I think she based it on something as basic as Pluto conjoining the Soviet Union Sun.
I am sure this was related in her book "The Outer Planets and their Cycles" but I do not have my copy around to check whether Pluto took the rap or not.

It would be topical to find out if she used a 1917 foundation chart as this is discussed elsewhere here

Regards

Matthew

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I am sure this was related in her book "The Outer Planets and their Cycles" but I do not have my copy around to check whether Pluto took the rap or not.
Thanks Matt,

I think your right. I only possess three Liz Greene books: Relating, Saturn, and this one so you that must be where I saw it.
It would be topical to find out if she used a 1917 foundation chart as this is discussed elsewhere here
She did use the 1917 chart but that will not really help the current discussion on whether the later chart for the Russian Federation is more valid. She was writing in 1980 before the Russian Federation came into existence.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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But I did agree with you Mark, I meant to add that the pragmatic approach can be applied to not only mundane but also natal astrology etc. Investigating what works and what doesn't is as valuable for natal as it is for mundane.
____________

Steven, points taken (or at least some of them). Sorry if I upset you. Perhaps there is something of value in Zoller's prediction.

However there's the humanist in me that can't accept that the attacks could be predicted by mundane astrology alone. Since we are dealing with acting individuals here, Bin Laden, Mohammed Atta etc, I think it would be better to find a relationship between their charts and the attacks. This approach would fit more in my natural view of astrology. Although the free will of these men could have prevented it, if there's something to be seen then it's their charts or that of Bin Laden's alone (as the mind behind this) to look at. What if they in their free will would have changed their minds in the last day before, nothing would have happened. I had a short look at BL's chart. Although no birthtime is given, his progressed Sun opposite to natal Neptune and square to natal Uranus and the Saturn square to his natal Mercury Venus close conjunction could indicate that he was working on something 'big'. If these positions gave him an impetus to act, imagine what he could have done had he only used his free will to choose to do something good.

My natural approach of mundane astrology would preferably contain the basic effects on natural matters, like weather, earthquakes etc, issues on which man's free will does have little effect.

An intermediate position would be the movement of the masses in societies. It's hard to tell, since societies are made of individuals and leaders can move the masses convincing them to use their free will to support them. So instead of calculating the charts of each individual in such cases one could look at the mundane astrology whether or not accompanied with the chart of leaders.

The other end of the spectrum of mundane events lies entirely in the acts of powerful people. I think that in these cases the use of natal charts is the most essential, if not the only way to delineate the events. The problem namely is to determine whether the event is 'mundane enough' to focus on the 'natal-less' charts. The attacks on the former 'New Amsterdam' were deeply felt at the offspring of its former colonialists and the attacks were absolutely unique in their shocking effect. Still, it was an act of several people led by BL which wouldn't have occurred without them. Seeing it differently or believing that it was "destined to be so" is unacceptable in my eyes, and reduces acts of individuals to mere passive fate like ants behaving according to a genetical program, just like believing that WWII was destined to happen as if there were no acts of humans (insofar as we can call nazi's and terrorists human) but mere acts of 'nature'.

In this point I totally support Kepler http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/astrology/ ... rology.pdf who wrote:
Kepler wrote:Thesis 69
And it is certainly most foolish to look for particulars from this source ( Daily aspects) such as the curious seek to find in calendars . For that which I stated in the Meteorology ought also to be held (true) here; from astrology one may demand nothing more than some excess of impulse of the soul; what there is going to be in a given case depends upon the freest exercise of will in

political statesmen, who are made in the image of God, not off springs of nature and other causes. Accordingly, whether there shall be peace or war in some region shall be determined by those who are versed in political affairs and who possess the faculty of prediction in a measure no less than that of the astrologer. For politics too have their rules, so to speak, as well as the influence of the heavens.
Although he continues...:
However, if there will be war in some region, then the souls (minds) of the soldiers and chiefs will be greatly prepared for stratagems, fights, battles and other actions on the following days: Jan. 12th, Feb. 5th, 14th, 24th; March 5th, 14th; April 5th, 25th; May 4th, 12th, 31st; June 9th, 21st; July 8th, 13th, 19th; Aug. 1st, 9th, 15th 25th, 30th; Sept. 20th, 27th; October 3rd; Nov 5th, 18th, 30th; Dec 25th. For this has been proven by experience.
... to me his main point is clear: some events work only through humans and their choices therein.

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However there's the humanist in me that can't accept that the attacks could be predicted by mundane astrology alone. Since we are dealing with acting individuals here
I have to say the evidence seems to be staring you in the face in regards Zoller's remarkable prediction. What you seem to be saying is that you have a philosophical objection to the issue of prediction in human affairs full stop.

This isn't the philosophy part of the forum but as I have raised the issue of doing more astrological prediction here your reply does raise some interesting points.

This ties into the deeper philosophical issues around freewill and determinism. Modern western culture is very attached to the notion of freewill. However, as the philosopher Heidegger said there is an inevitable 'throwness' about human destiny. We do not choose the time , place or culture we are born into. We do not choose our family, gender , race, educational opportunities or the religious and linguistic environment we are brought up in. Unless of course you have a belief in reincarnation or that such destiny is fated by God. However, thats another topic.

I do believe that there are certain times in history one can pick out one person who made a difference. For example, in 1940 if Lord Halifax had become British Prime Minister rather than Churchill Britain would very likely have adopted a placatory line towards Nazi Germany. Subsequent world history could have taken a totally different path.

On the other hand it might be argued Churchill was simply the active agent allowing the fulfillment of a wider collective destiny that would ultimately turn back the tide of Fascism.

I am no Marxist but I do believe history is often shaped by wider collective forces. For example, I dont believe that all the people dying in the 9/11 attacks had this as an astrological blueprint in their individual charts. In these kinds of mass tragedies I believe there is a collective destiny at work which supercedes that of the individual.

Using the language of eastern spirituality colective karma can supercede individual karma. Medieval astrologers such as Ibn Ezra also discussed this kind of hierarchy of fate.

How can individual or collective destiny be predicted? I believe because most people are habitual in their actions and quite literally 'predictable'. That is why horary is often so accurate. Yes, we have all have a modified degree of freewill. However, most people , most of the time consciously or unconsciously, 'choose' to remain caught up in their habitual behaviour and under the influence of cultural forces surrounding them.

Still, we are using using symbolism to see the future and as St Paul said 'we see through a glass but darkly'. Perhaps all the more so when great collective forces are unfolding. Or as the Jedi Master Yoda tells us: 'It is the future you see. Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future'

Nevertheless, I believe mundane prediction is possible. I suspect that only astrologers that have this conviction will make a successful mundane prediction. I dont believe Robert Zoller could have made his prediction without that belief. Its the 'you will see it when you believe it' perspective. I think astrology works on essentially magical principles so that human consciousness is pivotal. Equally, like translating Chinese into English there are differing ways of rendering astrological symbolism into surrounding events. The awareness, and consciousness of the astrologer is part of that process. Thus while I believe the search for better prediction can be partly found in improved techniques I dont think that is the whole answer. I think any astrologer seeking to do prediction also needs to question themselves how clear a vessel for astrological truth they embody in their consciousness.
My natural approach of mundane astrology would preferably contain the basic effects on natural matters, like weather, earthquakes etc, issues on which man's free will does have little effect.
Thats a worthwhile area of exploration in itself. And without the factor of sentient beings to consider probably more straightforward! Of course, I have rather the opposite problem from you. You see astrology working best as an external naturalistic phenomena while I see it most effective in human affairs. Still, there is room for us both. Astrology is a big tent. Moreover, the two do interact. For example the earthquakes in Haiti and Chile were both natural phenomena and large scale human tragedies. In that sense I do consider it possible to predict such events.
Last edited by Mark on Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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think that's part of the problem. We're looking for spectacular predictions to justify our faith in mundane astrology. There is no fun in making predictions like "The US Will Not Go to War with Australia in 2011," or "The dollar will rise/fall this year.
I don?t know if you can make money by predicting war with Australia, but the dollar falling makes big bucks in the forex markets.
Few astrologers are paid for mundane astrology work. Like all astrology this takes practice and there is no incentive to do it other than for amusement.
Agree. And, besides that, as I discussed with MarkC, there is also an egocentric attitude in the astrology community: lots of interest in our own natal and horary charts, but little interest in anything besides our own navels...
This problem was known to the medieval astrologers who noted when the conjunction took place and then used the following the Aries Ingress chart rather than the chart for the conjunction
I believe it was their practice to use the Aries ingress before the conjunction, not after, if I understood you correctly...

I feel sad that we have so many available data (earthquakes, criminality, political elections, popularity of presidents, births and death rates, economical statistics etc) but astrologers only are interested in looking at things in hindsight. Wouldn?t be more profitable to start looking at the things that are "not that interesting"?
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

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MarKC

I am fully behind this idea of prediction testing. And I really hope that a few people participate using different techniques so we can compare and learn. I would really like to see you traditional experts use the ingresses following the old methods- I just don?t have the skill yet and, equally, I would really like to see the fixed stars etc suggested by Dr Farr explored more. I think they are important but have never been able to grasp the essence of the fixed stars in the way I have the planets etc, and I want to learn more.
Let' s get our act together and then get to the trial and error part.
Well , to be honest, I kinda have already. Over the last 2 years I?ve been running a little prediction project of my own, predominately using modern techniques and country charts etc. I?ve not wanted to post the link to them for various reasons. But now I might be tempted, if others are going to provide comparative predictions through other techniques, and if people are prepared to accept the reservations I note at the bottom of this post.

Is it possible?
Regarding what has been said already. I do think mundane prediction is possible, and I think it is much easier to test than personal work. That is why I have been working on what I have.

Tom said
Zoller did well with his 9/11 prediction, but even allowing our hindsight and allowing for generalities in the prediction, that was pretty spectacular
I agree. This is what we ought to be aiming for at least part of the time and I also agree with his comment that
It is flat out unreasonable to expect an astrologer to predict "Four airplanes will be hijacked on Sept 11 2001. Two will be flown into the Twin Towers, one into the Pentagon and the last will be forced down killing all on board." The symbolism simply isn't that precise.
Or, even if the symbolism is there in the astrology, we don?t have the resources to get that detailed about everything.

Further I don?t think it was a completely lucky prediction, and I believe that it was possible to get there by more than one method.

steven said
Who else foresaw that event, any event, in September of 2001? zero, none ? nada
I sat in a astrological workshop in London in June 2001, and they were talking about the effects of the upcoming Pluto Saturn opposition. Someone made the point that the twin towers looked like the Gemini symbol (and therefore were a physical manifestation of Saturn- buildings in Gemini -trade) and that with Pluto in opposition they could be subject to attack. Ok maybe they went for August as a date (I can?t recall that bit) but I though it was quite accurate.

And I was asked to do a prediction for Mexico in 2001 (in the November of 2000) and concluded in that that events in the US from August would mean Mexico would be dominated by the need to in support of the US in the latter part of the year.

I suspect there were others who also identified the likely nature of things too but just didn?t publish formally.

What should we be looking at?

Tom
There is no fun in making predictions like ?.. "The dollar will rise/fall this year.


Well that is a matter of personal taste ;-)

As Yuzuru wrote
but the dollar falling makes big bucks in the forex markets.


Yes. 2006-2008. :D :D :D :D :D

But seriously

Steven notes
Generally speaking there are longer periods between the exciting stuff.

And Tom that
We're looking for spectacular predictions to justify our faith in mundane astrology.


We do need these to give ourselves motivation but I agree with Yuzuru that

Wouldn?t be more profitable to start looking at the things that are "not that interesting"?


what I have noticed is that if you do a lot of predictions, you can see where things, usually not so nice ones, happen but also where things are not so bad. That is information in itself. And equally important in its own way.

The biggest problem is, as Steven says we
? don't have the time to look in all places at the same time. The world is a big place and one would have to spend 24 hrs a day in order to keep up with all the earth shaking events. There are some things which help to narrow down regions likely to be more active than others. But what is required is many astrologers in more places following closer their relevant areas.


I wish. I wish. I wish. Why can?t there be more of this and then collaboration to form a world view?


I have also discovered another related problem. Unless the event is big, and if it is not in UK/US it doesn?t get reported in the UK media . It has been hard to check political type predictions after the event. And recently I started to note foreign news in the UK media as it happened. Some days there is zilch. I can? t check anything but the mega predictions because the reports aren?t sufficient. Market movements are ok as graphs are available but government debates are only news if there is practically war!

Anyway, enough of the problems. I want to see what everyone comes up with.


Note:
As I said there are various reasons for me not publicising my prediction blog:

First I am trying to test myself as well as the techniques. I didn?t want to garner much attention until I had refined things a bit. Also, as I have used mainly modern techniques, I have been hesitant to put a link to a mainly traditional forum.

Secondly, I am testing my chosen mundane charts ? some of which, like the US, are always subject to too much debate, and some I have rectified. I hate the ? which chart? debates that waste good prediction time, ;-) so have been trying to avoid attracting that sort of attention.

And also as I am using some for the first time I am still learning how they work (or in a couple of cases whether they do at all). I don?t want people coming down on me like a ton of bricks when I have made a bad choice.

Thirdly. I have been focussing on economics not politics. An definitely not on natural phenomena. As not many people do this I wasn?t convinced anyone would be interested. Tom?s comment re the dollar suggests he clearly would have skipped over almost all of it!!

Fourthly I?ve tried to cover a lot of countries, but something has to give and that has been detail and exact timing- I can?t look at inner planets because that is just too much data ? so accuracy could be anything from a day to 3 months depending these.

Fifth. Some of the forecasts are very long ( I?ve looked at up to 5 years). Readers might lose the will to live !!

Finally. Sometimes my mood and thus my blog takes a complete diversion and looks at something else through the crosshairs of astrology entirely for fun. I don?t want to enter into any discussions about those diversions.

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have also discovered another related problem. Unless the event is big, and if it is not in UK/US it doesn?t get reported in the UK media . It has been hard to check political type predictions after the event. And recently I started to note foreign news in the UK media as it happened. Some days there is zilch. I can? t check anything but the mega predictions because the reports aren?t sufficient.
Agree. There is also a high level of racism on international press. A disaster with 20 deaths on sweden will gain the news, but sometimes 20 thousand people dying in India is considered business as usual. When you see the press in different countries you can see that the "important" news of the day are very different.
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

25
yuzuru wrote:There is also a high level of racism on international press. A disaster with 20 deaths on sweden will gain the news, but sometimes 20 thousand people dying in India is considered business as usual. When you see the press in different countries you can see that the "important" news of the day are very different.
I remember that in 2001, I rented a room in a house where several people lived. There also lived a couple of Angolan refugees. When 9/11 occurred the Angolans didn't seem to be much bothered with this. This first annoyed me, but later I realized that when people have lived in a country where a civilian war had been going on for over 25 years with 1.5 million dead and the only external interest was in the county's oil, the 9/11 attacks wouldn't be that impressive to them.

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Yuzuru wrote:
There is also a high level of racism on international press. A disaster with 20 deaths on sweden will gain the news, but sometimes 20 thousand people dying in India is considered business as usual. When you see the press in different countries you can see that the "important" news of the day are very different.
I am not sure I agree it is all related to racism. I think its more the proximity factor. People tend to both identify and empathise most with tragedy closest to them. Compare a death in your family to a neighbour.Most people are more interested in an event in their community, town or region than something further afield. I suppose the same applies to tragedies abroad. Maybe its a reflection of our evolutionary past and its territorial basis. Apart from the territorial issues there can also be a sense of cultural belonging too. At present the majority of Americans, Canadians, Australians etc are of European origin. Plus linguistic or religious links can add to people's sense of affinity. I am not denying there might be an undercurrent of racism too. Some people clearly take more interest in people that look like them. In an ideal world it shouldn't make any difference but I guess human beings are a long way from being perfect.

Its almost a macabre standing joke here in the UK when the BBC announce 300 people have died in a plane crash. The second line is usually about the one or two British people onboard!

Still I do think the media can help or reinforce such tendencies. At its best the media can break down such distances. The wide coverage of the Haiti Earthquake across the world got it the attention it deserved and a lot of people in the developed world did pay attention and contributed to emergency aid charities. Seeing the images of such suffering can touch all of us.

However, you are right that the media is quite fickle on what it chooses to make newsworthy or important. Some cultures are possibly worse than others. Talking to my American relatives I have formed the impression the USA is especially insular at considering news events in other parts of the world.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

27
margherita wrote:p.s. in a few hours we will see if you are right about Saturn-Jupiter opposition and the change of the powers in Italy.
I just read the news that Lega Nord won the regional elections http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... -elections. So for this part I was wrong in the prediction of change of powers from the right to the left.
I tried the search function in the Guardian but with the same result.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... -elections
Last edited by Eddy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.