..at least, that is what it looked like to me.
Now, i would appreciate your comments on both the chart and my reading.

It's a romantic question and the Querent is someone whom I've known for quite a while.This is the first Horary chart that i have made for her but we have had great communication and many successful readings over the past 2,5 years .

She is currently going through a very hard phase in life and has experienced all sorts real problems and dangers over the past two years and so, around her last birthday, I suggested that we should do quarterly prognosis instead of a single reading for this year . I would be really happy if astrological advices help her to solve at least some of her problems.
In November, when she said that she would appreciate some help in regards to a very specific situation, I crossed my fingers under the desk hoping that she would not mention love because if there is anything that i have learnt over the past few years, it is that, in such situations, the last thing that a person wants to hear is a bad love prognosis. It appears to be the hardest thing to survive.
But she did have a love question.
She had broken up with her last boyfriend some 7 months prior to this visit and I must say that, after hearing her story, I thought that she was building castles in the sky. But, since she insisted, i erected the chart and, to my great surprise, it looked very promising. Now, i'm not sure I can see the reflection of that promise in reality.

The background story- last summer, when she said that her love life were "as dead as a stone", i said that she should better start paying more attention to men- maybe there's a candidate out there waiting for her to notice him. She took my advise seriously and soon, she managed to narrow down her selection from "no-one to one". She started noticing a man, a craftsman who runs an old family business (antiques repair & restoration) and owns a small shop in the town. She was sure that he had liked her ever since she was just a teenager (he could be 5 -10 years older) and so she came up with an idea; there are a few antiquities in her home, all inherited from her late aunt, that all needed to be examined and repaired. One of these objects (a piece of jewellery, i believe) was in a very poor shape and so she decided to take it to his shop and ask him to repair it. It seemed like a great way to finally meet him.

The Question was: What can I expect if I go there and how will this situation develop over time?

Of course, it was romance that she was asking about, not the jewellery!

Here's the chart:



Now, the moment I erected the chart, i noticed that it was a very "radical" and a very chatty chart. It seemed to be telling all sorts of things which i will skip now but the fact is- everything seemed so beautifully intertwined. And, the situation looked very promising too. The castle in the sky all of a sudden looked like a cunning plan.

She is represented by Mercury inside the 7th and in Sagittarius. In her Natal chart, the Ascendant falls in Virgo and Mercury is strongly influenced by Jupiter- this Ascendant describes her more than well.

He gets Jupiter, inside the 10th, in Aquarius,. We don't know much about him but we do know that he is a handsome man (objectively!) and that he has been running his family business very successfully for more than 10 years which is a reason enough to believe that this peregrine Jupiter has kept many of its positive sides (bad Jupiter wastes his patrimony ).
Her ruler is detrimental but, in a way, it is expected as she is obviously keen on him. At the time, she wasn't madly in love with this man but it was a good sign of the affection that she might soon start developing for him - a chart of this kind should give us a better insight into the general potential .
So, what led me to believe that this chart was suggesting a situation full of potential?

1)She is inside his rulership and applying to his his ruler in a dexter sextile. She is welcome in his home. The first very good sign.
2)Secondly, the planets are in a very strong mutual reception by triplicities. The affection is most likely mutual and very strong.
3)Both rulers are angular and hence accidentally fortified, in good houses, applying to each other (a beautiful sextile) and their natures mix well. (Mercury and Jupiter make a great couple, don't you think?)

So far, 3 very strong positive signs and a clear sign of perfection.

What about the Moon?
It is peregrine but accidentally strong! It is inside the 11th house, applying (or rushing into the application) with its dispositor and will make benevolent aspects with L1 and L7 before leaving the sign it is currently occupying. It's last aspect before leaving the sign will actually be a sextile with the Greater Benefic which seemed like a great promise. After taking a very good lok at this chart, I realised that, though peregrine, this planet has actually "picked" the best possible placement considering the rest of the chart. it's almost a strategic position. From here, it can cast a benevolent trine to its dispositor, it can then trine L1 and cast a sextile onto L7 (Jupiter) and it even sextiles the Ascendant which I took as a sign of a generally positive phase rather than a promise of a specific event.
The only bad aspect that it has to form from this house is the one with saturn (that one would not be welcome in a Relationship chart) and that aspect is already a matter of past. The Moon is separating from the Sun too but- we can't have it all, aye?!
The Moon at the beginning of the sign was descriptive of the early stage of this situation whilst the application of her ruler to L7 was very indicative of her initial impulse.
I also spotted that this placement of her ruler perfectly fits her plan- the 7th is his territory! Even his ruler is inside the 10th (job) or we could say derived 4th (again, his place), which means that she is or should be the visitor, that she should make the first move and, obviously, that she can expect a "warm welcome" there. The sextile says "yes", the angularity confirms her determination, the reception gives much hope and the Moon looks like a great helper. The long term potential, in case we examine it through the future movement of the Moon, looks more than promising too.
So, I did suggest that she should do everything as planned- according to this chart, it seemed like a flawless plan.

But, i did notice that the Moon was currently void of course (though, some astrologers would maybe allow a wider orb for this application of the Moon to Mars) and I assumed that there would be a delay. Naturally, it is always hard to talk about delays when the Querent's ruler is angular (determined) and when the promise is good. In combination with a positive astrological reading, a person has a strong wind in her back and it is generally hard to stop her. So, I examined the rest of the chart thoroughly hoping that some of the aspects might help me understand as to why the meeting might be postponed.
Her ruler is separating from a trine with Mars whilst his ruler is separating from a square with Venus. We don't know if he had separated from a woman around that time, but we do know that the Querent was slowly leaving her most recent lover behind. Mercury is still very much within the orb of its last aspect with Mars and it is not fully elongated from the sunbeams and so I asked if her ex boyfriend had, by any chance, stepped into her life again? She said that he did- she was actually hoping that they would reconcile this autumn but then "it all went to hell again". The Moon separating from a benevolent trine with the Sun could have been indicative of this situation as well. There were no stressful events involved (trines) but the relationship could not have been brought to life again.
The Moon moving away from the opposition with saturn inside the 5th and from the trine with the Sun, also looked descriptive of the many ups and downs that these two had been through.
Then I realised that the Moon's next application was actually to this very Mars which looked like a possible sign of yet another episode with her ex boyfriend. I asked her what she thought about that and she said that she would really like to move on, that she didn't believe that the two of them could even have a cup of coffee together in the nearest future, let alone be together again, but she also admitted that she still "goes weak at the knees" when she sees him. She said that she hoped that the story with her ex was a matter of past.
The orb of the application (L1/L7) is 2,5 units of time (considering the possibility of a delay, it was months, most likely) . The orb of the next application of the Moon equals 10 units of time which could , again, be saying 10 weeks or 2.5 months.

So, what has happened so far?
The Querent did not have the courage to go and meet the Quesited before the New Year and decided that she would do it in January.
In mid-January, she met her ex again and her plans suddenly changed. She forgot all about the man from the question and, though the new situation that included her ex was not at all promising and was hardly even "a situation", she felt no real impulse to go to the shop or to even think about another man..
As expected, the newest reconciliation phase brought nothing but yet another dozen of sleepless nights. Finaly, the Querent decided that she was ready for a brand new start. And for the planned visit.
It was mid-February; 2.5 months after the Question had been asked.
She picked the object that she thought was in the worst shape, she put some make up on and went to the shop. She said that she was shaking.

She called me the moment she left the shop. And she sounded more than disappointed. And her disappointment is, unfortunately, still pretty much present thought it has been a month since then.
Apparently, nothing went as planned!
She was hoping that she would see him at least twice- when she takes the object there to have it fixed and again when she goes to pick it up after the restoration. She was also hoping that this might include the exchange of phone numbers and, of course, some initiative on his side. By all means, she expected that she would at least establish a "relationship" that would allow her to say "Hi" to him in the street in case nothing special happens during these two visits.
Instead, he briefly examined the object and said that the damage was irreversible. When he saw her disappointment, he added that he could try to do something about it but then he suggested that she should just take it home since it would be a tacky job, he could not give her any guaranties and the object was not worth spending that much money .
And that was it. She only got to spend about a 2min there. Besides, she says that, when she entered, she heard him talking on the phone and he didn't even hang up when he saw her entering. As soon as she thanked him and said 'goodbye', he went into the small room where the phone is and continued the conversation.

What happened?

I am aware of the fact that the chart was not suggesting that the two of them would get married the first time she goes there and that the Querent just might be a bit too impatient but the truith is - the chart was suggesting that she should make the first step and now, her hands seem to be tied. We cannot expect him to approach her first, she is still a total stranger and is not even sure if she should say anything when she sees him in the street (she is affraid that she might end up being humiliated, though, saying "hi" is a nice thing to do ) and, of course, she cannot think of any other way to get to know him better. They're still strangers, their first meeting was obviously very unpleasant and she does not know how to use the potential that I saw in the chart. unles,of course, it was me who made the mistake. Was it?
I did notice that his ruler was disposed by the strongest planet in the chart, and that this planet can signify the "spoiler of the fun" (Saturn), as well as the fact that it was placed inside the 5th-. A wife? But, if he were a married man who has no interest in my client, then why would the rest of the chart look the way it does?! This Saturn does not look harmful and it certainly isn't a prohibitor.
His ruler is conjunct Neptune but, though it probably does bring a dose of negativity into the picture and does suggest that some things just might be hidden from the Querent, the placement so near MC makes me wonder as to how long can a secret about him stay a secret and it certainly does not look like a harmful influence either. The sextile of the main significators comes first.
Some things should always come first - there was a strong sign of perfection in this chart and, even now, i'm not sure if I can detect a single sign of danger, humiliation or disappointment.


What do you think?

Well, I'd say, after a quick glance at the chart, that the good old lesser malefic, oriental and peregrine in a fixed sign in the angle of the earth(signifying the end of things) really screw things up, just like Bonatti said it probably would.
Moreover, Mercury is still pretty much weakened by its proximity to the Sun, still closely joined to peregrine Mars and these are afflictions(although they could have been much worse, of course) but here they were sufficient to undermine the whole design, obviously. The Moon(in my opinion, and I stick to Lilly's point of view) is not void of course, because still closely joined to Sun and already beginning to join Mars(10 degree orb for these two).
Mercury receives Jupiter by triplicity only, so not enough for something lasting and deep. Jupiter in a domicile of Saturn, a fixed airy sign of Aquarius shows perfectly well the man's cool aloofness and detachment in the situation presented. Mercury applying out of a double-bodied sign(long ascension also) of a ponderous planet would indicate months, I presume - but timing, as we all know, is the hardest part of a horary prediction.

She is inside his rulership and applying to his his ruler in a dexter sextile

Actually, it's a sinister sextile, being cast in the order of the signs from the applying planet.

Very interesting. Like you, I would have thought the answer would be a definitive yes also. I've had charts where there were trines that did not come to fruition while charts with an opposition or square that do. Sometimes it all gets confusing but the answer is somewhere in the chart. I'd be interested to see more experienced Horary technicians chime in on this because it is a head scratcher indeed!

Hello Aglaya

I'm agreeing with cor scorpii about Mars afflicting.

The Querent did not have the courage to go and meet the Quesited before the New Year and decided that she would do it in January.

That sounds like the soon-to-be-retro Mars in Leo to me....

When the horary was cast Mars was just over 3 weeks away from its station. It stationed on 20th December, so was slowing in this horary chart, and would station opposite to where Jupiter is in the chart, and still within orb of opposition to Jupiter in real-time. As well as being angular in the horary chart, Mars was afflicting Jupiter, and Mercury, as cor scorpii has pointed out. With Moon in Aries, and Mars the hour ruler, I think 'Mars' is being shouted.

I also think that the chart shows the man quite happy in his work, happy to receive her into his place of work, but she's not happy there, is she?

Last but not least, Mercury in the sign of its detriment.... I think it's a sign that her going over to his domicile would put her in a vulnerable position where she can't be at her best. Mercury went retro as well around the Xmas/New Year time. Perhaps her Mercurial approach was too inconstant or too airy and 'afflicted' by fiery passions (Mars in Leo) - not enough substance or lasting ardour?

Regards

H.

Although a chart looks 'promising' in a way, that can only hold true if we examine it superficially.
Mercury under the Sun's beams shows she isn't thinking clearly/realistically after all, a close trine with Mars that she is impatient(talking about disappointment so quickly!); Moon is also in a fire sign, so a lot of striving/urge for a quick solution, action...highly unrealistic, considered the two haven't had a contact before and she only 'thought he had liked her when she was a teenager'.
If something should happen, she would have to investigate a bit more energy/time than she already has - this is clearly shown by planetary symbolism in this chart; he is Jupiter so a superior planet which, unless retrograde/applying to Saturn, applies to none other. Mercury is the one striving to accomplish something and although it is received and a sextile is a positive aspect, it is nevertheless the weakest of all; Bonatti thought in such a case that the thing comes to pass ..."but not without the querent's expectation and desire."
Mercury USB has no real strength in signification, and being joined to Mars makes him the weakest and most 'suspect' part of this chart.
The Moon's next aspect is a trine with an angular Mars(the greatest culprit for ultimate collapse of the otherwise 'promising' atmosphere) and although the Moon is received, Mars is peregrine and doesn't have anything good to bestow on the Moon, the general symbol of generation and corruption in any chart - the reception/trine only ensure that the damage inflicted by him will be limited and bearable(this presumably shows there won't be any strong 'conflicts' between the parties involved, in a broad sense of the word). Moreover, Mars, the natural ruler of discord/separation/severing is a planet nearest to an angle, thus influencing the whole chart strongly and testifying to eventual destruction of the thing inquired after. Venus, the natural ruler of love/unification is cadent in the 6th, in her detriment, so unable to exert her positive influence.

May I involve Uranus in this story? We can notice contra-antiscium Moon - Uranus (separation and discord again).

Trojan

Thank you for your replies. I had this answer ready some 5 hours ago and then the electricity went down just when I was about to press the Submit button

I'll just have to write everything again!

But, before I do, i do have to remind you that this is situation is not necessarily over. The Querent has only seen the man once and this could all be just a temporary phase - we still don't know the final outcome.

The sextile that connects the main rulers is not really weak, there I have to disagree. It is supported by mutual reception that can often overcome even stressful aspects, it is connecting the planets from good houses and the planets are accidentally well dignified which increases their ability to act. But, with the L1 being the faster planet, the initiative is definitely on the Querent's side (the quote from Bonatti's work describes it well enough) which is why I suggested that her original plan seemed like a god plan. She was ready to make that first move- she was the one who came up with that plan in the first place.
Also, I wouldn't call this reception weak. First of all- the ruler L1 being placed inside the rulership of the Quesited is one good indication of the Querent's affection (at least here where we have a relationship chart but certainly the interest of some kind) for the Quesited. Being in love with the person represented by the 7th cusp automatically means being detrimental; but I've seen many chart which such a placement that were not promising a negative outcome. Quite the contrary- the Querent was simply in love and attached to the Quesited.
Of course, if the planet were left alone or forgotten in there (inside the 7th), with no aspects to the ruler of the Quesited, then we would probably have a good indication of a person all smitten with the Quesited but with no signs of a possible positive outcome. But in this case, we have a ruler that is received by L7 and that, again, is reception. The Querent shows her affection for the quesited (L1 inside the 7th) whilst the Quesited shows his generosity by receiving her in his own home; she is welcome there.That is our first sign of a possible good cooperation. The second one is the mutual reception by triplicities and I wouldn't call it a weak one; the exchange of the same dignity can imply a well balanced mutual affection and make the communication easier. Personally, i've seen love charts that had a very positive outcome and not nearly as strong reception as in this one. So, it is not just triplicities, we have one rulership in this picture too.
Same goes for the aspect- I'm pretty sure that this combination of mutual reception and angularity could survive even a square, let alone a benevolent sextile.

Of course, i'm not trying to advocate for myself , I'm just trying to explain why I thought (and why I still think) that this chart has had a great promise.

I did, of course, spot this Mars. As a matter of fact, i spent much time examining it because, it seems to be telling many, many things. It's placement is actually very interesting but, despite its angularity, with strong signs of perfection, it takes (IMHO) much more than just an angular malefic to ruin everything. This Malefic is even very friendly with the Moon. Also, its potentially harmful influence on L7 cannot be executed since the planet is stopped by refranation and prohibition. The influence on L1 belongs to the past- it's a separating aspect and it wasn't even a harmful one. as for the opposition to L7- it will never be perfect because Mercury reaches the goal first and Mars turns retrograde soon after that.
But it is certainly an influence. Look at this Venus- there has been a stressful aspect with Jupiter, she is cadent and this Mars, that looks like an open enemy who is directly attacking the Quesited, is her dispositor. A cheated husband? Perhaps, but the one that gives up after Mercury reaches Jupiter. We could apply this placement on this man's professional life too; Mars brings the influence of the 12th (and the 6th), it occupies the Quesited's derived 10th and attacks him on the cusp of the radical 10th but, again, maybe with a little help of a friend (the Quesited's friend), a lawyer, a middle party if not the Querent herself, he can avoid the danger. Many, many stories could be hiding behind this placement but only some of them will have the influence on this situation. After I eliminated all the possible meanings that aren't likely to affect the two of them as a couple, I noticed that this position is happening on the 4th/10th axis and that it might actually be suggesting some kind of tensions in regards to their home, origins, nationality, religion etc. I asked the Querent for her opinion and she was very surprised by the question but she did say that the two of them do come from significantly different backgrounds and that the ethnic group to which the Quesited belongs is usually against mixed marriages. Still, she said that, at least according to other people, he is a very open minded person and, after all, around 40 which made her believe that an obstacle of a such kind would be easy to overcome. Personally, i believe that there would be an obstacle (his mother, his family etc.) especially since he is obviously very attached to the tradition/family (inside the derived 4th and disposed by Saturn).

But, like I already said, this mercury separating from Mars was also very descriptive of her last relationship which is why i took the small orb of this separation along with the orb of the Moon's separation from the Sun as signs of the Querent's lasting affection for her ex boyfriend- her ruler still exposed to the sun beams seemed to be supporting that. (Mercury, of course, is weakened by this placement, but it is also partially immune to the sunbeams and the orb of the separation is very wide). At the same time, I took the application of the Moon to Mars as a sign of a new activity that might bring her ex boyfriend back into her life. And, though the Querent was hoping to hear different kind of news, that indeed is what happened.

The fact that this Mercury will eventually turn retrograde is something that I really don't think should be taken relevant here. Well, here or in general actually because the movement of the planets after they have completed the desired aspect in a Horary chart is never taken as relevant. This planet does not change signs or direction before the aspect with Jupiter is perfect and so we have a direct, though a bit slow, Mercury applying to Jupiter.

Now, I don't, of course, mind the opinions about Uranus, venus or the Sun. it is true that venus is cadent but main significators always come first. It is way better to have a well dignified L1 and a cadent Venus than to have a strong Venus and main significators with no ability to act in the desired way. The things is that , a least from my perspective, this chart contains very few negative aspects, but even more importantly- the positive signs seem to be much stronger then them.

A delineation of a Horary chart (just like any other delineation) has to respect a certain hierarchy; whilst other planets (including natural rulers of the matter such as venus in this case) can reveal the potential obstacles, under-miners or helpers or give a better insight into the sphere of life and the activity, we do have to start from somewhere and know how to wage the importance of each sign in a chart. The main significators and the Moon always come first. We need to have a strong sign of perfection (the aspect, potent rulers, good houses, mutual reception...), a Moon that is cooperative and in a position to help, and a radical chart of course. And regardless of whether the most important indicators say a "yes" or a "no"- the antiscia of Uranus is hardly capable of ruining the plans for the Querent. It can add an information or two but it cannot change the final outcome. At least not according to the traditional sources. So, in order to avoid superficiality as cor scorpii has mentioned, we do have to stick to what is most important. The main significators (the Moon included) should always come first.
Personally, I still believe that I have maybe underestimated an influence that might have been suggesting an obstacle or an unwanted delay but it still looks like a "yes" chart to me.

Quite the contrary- the Querent was simply in love and attached to the Quesited.

But she isn't....

She dropped him for a while then picked him up again....

The fact that this Mercury will eventually turn retrograde is something that I really don't think has much importance in this chart.

She changed her mind twice....

The situation didn't go according to her thoughts, something unexpected happened.

Mercury didn't 'eventually' turn retro, it turned retro (as did Mars) at approximately the same time the querent changed her mind. That's not insignificant.

At the time of the horary Mercury was indeed moving quickly, as was your client, but Mercury and your client changed direction at New Year.

As cor scorpii has said, that angular Fixed Mars is so afflicting in various ways that the chart can't go far in any direction without running into it. The sextile between Mercury and Jupiter is still a sextile, and although received she was indeed received: as a customer. He is in the 10th and has some essential dignity, she is in the 7th and although in her terms she is in her detriment.

She asked what will happen. The answer is surely more or less 'he'll be friendly and so forth but pfffffft watch out for Mars and remember he's into his career, not a relationship'

Sorry but I just don't agree with you that the chart is 'beautiful'. It has good reception with the sextile, I agree, and the luminaries in trine with Moon increasing in light, certainly. I just think it also describes his relative insufficient interest in relationship and her 'hot-headedness' and changeableness.

Regards

H.

I think what puzzles me is why you don't see Mars as capable of being a kind of destroyer in this chart.

Mars rules the 12th (and the 6th if you want to include the intercepted house), has no essential dignity, is at half his average speed and slowing down to turn retrograde, and is less than 2 degrees from the IC so he's not only willing to be malefic he's capable of it too.

The Moon in impatient (you mentioned her impatience) Aries is applying (you said rushing) to trine Mars. Isn't this enough to warn the client about haste? Yes, Mars receives the Moon, but is that so good, really? Mars is still malefic in this chart, so he isn't going to actively help the Moon. More like the devil on the shoulder than the angel.

Mars is opposite Jupiter, the significator of the man being pursued by Diana the Huntress (slightly tongue in cheek) Moon in Aries.

Jupiter is cool, calm and collected and dealing with antiques (Aquarius, ruled by Saturn). I don't think he's not likely to respond with the ardour that the querent is showing, nor is he likely to enjoy it since he's opposed to Martian things, so again the querent has a caution about Mars to take into account.

He's slightly essentially dignified in the 10th so he's quite content in his workplace and is likely to find Martian things unwelcome to say the least. If you want to include Neptune then he's looking lost in his own world, not quite 'there', maybe pining over his last love (the separating square with Venus) or else concerned with the restoration of distressed valuables (Venus in Scorpio in the 6th). Either way, although he receives her, he's not looking like he's going to do much about it.

Yes, the querent's significator is angular, but in his house. She's in hot pursuit. But she's pursuing someone who isn't in pursuit of her, and who might welcome her interest and reciprocate to some extent, but he isn't interested in getting off his backside, snapping out of his reverie on the phone, and noticing that he's the chosen prey of Diana the predator. He loves antiques, though not the one she took with her. Maybe she should try a more repairable one, but I still think she should be more cautious, cooler, and more prepared for him being interested more in the antique than in her.

You mentioned don't Mercury and Jupiter make a good couple, well, potentially, but I think it's easy to get carried away.

Regards

H.

handn wrote:

Quite the contrary- the Querent was simply in love and attached to the Quesited.

But she isn't....

She dropped him for a while then picked him up again....

because her ruler was still deep inside the orb of its last separation and the Moon has only recently started separating from the Sun. But this is a chart of general potential and it was suggesting that this would not stay just a fling but rather that her emotions would become stronger and deeper (probably as soon as her ruler leaves the the area of the sunbeams). You're right, she wasn't in love with this man at the time of the question but she is now!

In "Love triangle" thread you will find a chart with L1 inside the 7th.The Querent had actually turned the quesited down around that time- but soon she fell in love with him and is still very much in love (it's been a years since then).

This question is not set in any specific time frame and the will inevitably change over time- she wasn't madly in love with him then but the chart was suggesting that she might become in love. Also, this placement is descriptive of her intention and determination. ;-=

Again, I stick to traditional definition of reception and that being said, I will reiterate once more that the reception given to the Jupiter by Mercury is a weak reception because it is by triplicity only. In order to have a real reception, one more lesser dignity would have to be involved(term or face). A real, very strong reception is given to Mercury(domicile and triplicity).
Another important traditional precept is that an angular planet(s) influence a chart the most - whatever this influence might be; in this case, it is definitely a malefic one so Mars reverberates through this horary and colors it with its accidental/essential significations which are negative and above all, persistent and lasting; it is not a coincidence that Mars is positioned on the IC, signifying the outcome and the final result of this horary. This alone speaks volumes. I don't think its influence should be underestimated, it is by all means capable of destroying/spoiling a good potential otherwise promised(although I honestly don't see in what sense this chart might be termed 'beautiful' or very promising).
I've forgotten to mention another one of Bonatti's considerations which states that a malefic posited in an angle from one of the significators(and here it is in the 7th from Jupiter) is a very negative thing. Now, we have a Mars that is applying to Jupiter by opposition and it is true that it doesn't perfect - but it also doesn't have to - the influence is still there and the two planets are in reality joined by their combined orbs of light.