skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Career in traditional natal astrology
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject: Career in traditional natal astrology Reply with quote

Career is one of the most consistently difficult areas in natal for me to delineate.

It seems to me that there are two major techniques (vastly simplified here):

1. The natural significators technique - Venus, Mars, and Mercury are the natural significators for work. The most angular and/or dignified is the main significator, with the career being what that planet signifies.

2. The ruler of the 10th - Take the sign and ruler of the 10th and any planets inside the 10th and delineate accordingly.

I've had very mixed success with both. I tend to consider both the natural significators and the 10th. I've had charts where this is wildly successful. One in particular had Mars as the natural significator and Aries on the 10th. The man was in the military and had a career opportunity in a weapon's plant.

However a chart I did today was the opposite. Venus was the most angular, so according to Bonatti, Venus was the career significator. Her 10th house was Capricorn ruled by Saturn and the 10th was empty.

Turns out she was a nurse. Sure in retrospect I might be able to make that career fit her chart (the Moon was conjunct her ASC in Taurus and not afflicted), but I should be able to make a more certain delineation. The expectation of most clients is to tell them what their career is or should be. If I can't do that, I think that's a problem. Other areas of the chat I am much more comfortable and have had good success.

Anyone have more success with career?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Mithra

my position on astrology, that I believe many people will be against, is that astrology will only give a "conditional probability".

Meaning that it will only work given the proper context (usually the social, culturual, genetic, and familiar backgrounds). For instance, if a person was born in the US, I assume that he will have, at least the minimum salary, but usually will have the average salary. Our definition of "will he be a rich man" should be very different if he was born in a country where the top 1% of richest people gain less then the minimum salary on the US... In both cases there might be signs of riches, but in each case the reality of the situation will act.

Assuming that you are still with me, I believe that in professions we also are prone to act as if everybody will have and can have a profession. Letīs imagine that in Myamar 90& of population are farmers. Well, I know that astrologers love their charts, but in my humble opinion, ignore the chart and just bet that your subject will be a farmer! The mundane situation far outweighs anything that the natal chart may show!

Social class is very important, even in the rich countries. A man of a lower social class will never be a Ivy League surgeon, despite of how many surgeons charts you may have studied and compared to.

Most people, even of average classe, will work in things where jobs are available, be it teaching, the military, nursing, etc. I never saw any people whose vocation was to work on public (or private) office...

I believe that the natal chart many times can only show the vocation of the person.

Said that, I would advice that you wouldnīt focus only on the MC and angles, but also on fortuna and part of spirit

Best regards
Y
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
hervaro



Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 108
Location: Antwerp, Be.

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:


I believe that the natal chart many times can only show the vocation of the person.

Said that, I would advice that you wouldnīt focus only on the MC and angles, but also on fortuna and part of spirit

Best regards
Y


Margherita has an enlightening article on her blog (read it here: http://heavenastrolabe.net/stars-trade-magistery-profession-and-inclinations/). I have found the quote from Ptolemaeus most enlightening and helpfull. But still, as Yuzuru pointed out, there is every-day reality to deal with!
Yuzuru, how do you interpret the parts in this respect?
Pars Fortuna as the "greatest hunger", what Soul longs for?
Pars Spirituus as the conscious choices we can make?
Could you elaborate on them in this respect?
_________________
Herman

http://www.hervaro.be
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Herman

There are some "secrets of the trade" that I usually donīt like to post on public forums, because, you know, after a while always some "genius" will appear and claim it as his or her own.

but as this is not such a big deal, I have found that usually the magisterial planet (venus, mars or mercury) which has the most tight aspect with MC, Fortuna or Spirit must be analysed either for hobby or career.

Of course, there are many traditional considerations, like oriental to the sun, etc, but I found that when one of the three are in contact with those points, he usually beat up the competition.
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
hervaro



Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 108
Location: Antwerp, Be.

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:
I have found that usually the magisterial planet (venus, mars or mercury) which has the most tight aspect with MC, Fortuna or Spirit must be analysed either for hobby or career.

Of course, there are many traditional considerations, like oriental to the sun, etc, but I found that when one of the three are in contact with those points, he usually beat up the competition.


Thanks Yuzuru for elaborating.
In my personal case, Mercury is the only one tightly connected to the MC by sextile out of the 12th. Mercury ofcourse, rules a.o. astrology, but is tucked away in the 12th.
With Ptolemaeus aproach, Moon rises well before the Sun (Sun at 0Libra, Moon at 0Virgo), ānd is placed in the 10th. Moon, a.o. also rules diviners etc.
But my passion, my calling if you wish, has always been the Arts. Venus, though in detriment, is in the first, and disposits the PF, while Jupiter as ruler of the 5th - oops, I meant to write the 2nd!-, rules the PS. Maybe that counts as well, even though no aspect with MC or Part is present?

Anyway, I think your phrasing "for hobby or career" sums it up very well!
_________________
Herman

http://www.hervaro.be


Last edited by hervaro on Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Herman

yes, of course, a venus in the first will always be a strong indication, specially if also is ruler of fortuna
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely share Yuzuru's views on the environment and social circumstances being of major importance. I think most astrologers will agree with this.

Personally I'd believe that the MC would indicate things that excite your interest in something. For example one could be a dustbin man for gaining money and an amateur archeologist as hobbyist. In that case I would look for indicators about archeology rather than household refuse.

I'm not well versed in traditional astrology but wouldn't the fact that in medieval days there was more rigidness of vocations result in less attention to career in astrology and therefore few developments of techniques?

Tetrabiblos IV 1-4 in this version http://www.reocities.com/astrologysources/classicalgreece/tetrabiblos/tetrabiblosbookiv.htm gives some examples. Perhaps some of these professions can be translated to modern professions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not well versed in traditional astrology but wouldn't the fact that in medieval days there was more rigidness of vocations result in less attention to career in astrology and therefore few developments of techniques?


Well, one of principles of traditional astrology is that everything in the cosmos can be distributed between seven planets, so we are used to summarize a little :-)

Yes, there are many many "professions" nowadays, but several are just different names for the same things: webdesigner, designer, interior designer, "fashionist", architect, all do more or less the same thing, a venusian job.

I wrote some notes on Ptolemy http://episthemologie.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/notes-about-ptolemy-on-carreer/, but Steven has made some deep research on profession on natal charts, maybe he can give us his opinion
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mithra6 you might be interested in this thread: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3240&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zuli



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 83

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuzuru, I read your notes, I agree with most of them. Planets within 15 deg to Sun are invisible. Does it mean their action are invisible as well? Your opinion is that such a planet can not be a ruler of action. But I found out many natal charts disagree. For example, people who have in their charts Mercury very near Sun (ecpecially if the Sun does not see another planet) are very thinking, talkative, quick. They express exactly the nature of Mercury, do they not?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zuli wrote:
Yuzuru, I read your notes, I agree with most of them. Planets within 15 deg to Sun are invisible. Does it mean their action are invisible as well?


Yes, this is the traditional view. At their best they give hobbies.


I should say that the chapter about career is the most difficult one for me, because it's always difficult to find a planet in the required position.

The other day we should re-read Ptolemy chapter in order to find some clue for the chart we were studying and we could not find Sad

Anyway Herman's case (I missed the thread, sorry) is easy; because Venus is in the first house and disposes the POF. It looks like one of the rare cases where the chapter works! My chart is not like that, for example.

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
zuli



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 83

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile, to find the planet of action, I normally consider the aspects to the Moon as well as the aspects to the Sun.

margherita wrote:
zuli wrote:
Planets within 15 deg to the Sun are invisible. Does it mean their action are invisible as well?


Yes, this is the traditional view. At their best they give hobbies.


I still can not agree. Look at the chart of B Obama, his burnt Mercury is so talkative. And together with Jupiter trine Moon, they made him a lawyer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hervaro



Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 108
Location: Antwerp, Be.

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, with respect to the Quality of the Mind, in seminar with John Frawley we learned that a combust or USB Mercury might indicate a *good* mind, because of the "direct connection" between the Sun as source of Truth, and Mercury the Messenger...
_________________
Herman

http://www.hervaro.be
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does it mean their action are invisible as well? Your opinion is that such a planet can not be a ruler of action. But I found out many natal charts disagree


Hi, in fact I donīt think that! I was probably commenting on Ptolemy and didnīt separate things enough :-)

I also have found in too many natal charts that a combust planet was the ruler of profession... so, or our understand of vocation and profession is wrong (and you can be a talented painter based on your mars, for instance, but I think this really destroy most of the teaching) or maybe the signification of the sun with career and fame supersede the symbolism of combustion.

As one time I was discussing with Estebon, I believe that the same planet or the same configuration can have really different meanings depending of what field of the life we are studying.
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hervaro wrote:
Well, with respect to the Quality of the Mind, in seminar with John Frawley we learned that a combust or USB Mercury might indicate a *good* mind, because of the "direct connection" between the Sun as source of Truth, and Mercury the Messenger...


This for what I know is traditional, but not in the case of career and profession.

This everybody repeated, an invisible planet cannot act (between the rest of required conditions) and this is exactly the reason why Mercury with the Sun gives a good mind (especially in its proper sect and side of epycycle), because mind is generally opposite to the action.

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated