skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Career in traditional natal astrology
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 134
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zuli wrote:
Yuzuru, I read your notes, I agree with most of them. Planets within 15 deg to Sun are invisible. Does it mean their action are invisible as well? Your opinion is that such a planet can not be a ruler of action. But I found out many natal charts disagree. For example, people who have in their charts Mercury very near Sun (ecpecially if the Sun does not see another planet) are very thinking, talkative, quick. They express exactly the nature of Mercury, do they not?


Mercury does seem to be the exception in cases of Profession/Reputation, a combust to under-the-beams Mercury is considered a fortified significator when delineating the natives Mastery. This doesn't eliminate the need to consider the zodiacal state of both planets and the aspects they receive.
_________________
Western Predictive Astrology by Estebon Duarte Independent Researcher AMA MACAA
Natal Chart & Annual Solar Revolution Reports
www.organic-astrology.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mercury does seem to be the exception in cases of Profession/Reputation, a combust to under-the-beams Mercury is considered a fortified significator when delineating the natives Mastery.


Is this a traditional principle or a modern assumption? I am genuinely asking because it seems surprising to me, but it is a long time since I have studied the traditional approach to the assesment of career. I also think that Mercury is generally not as heavily afflicted by combustion as the other planets, because its cycle is closer to and more obviously centred upon the body of the Sun; but on the other hand I never think the combustion is irrelevant or giving fortitude, and wouldn't have thought it helpful in matters of career except in the situations that require discretion/diplomacy or secrecy, etc. Hence this surprises me a little.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: USA

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to wonder if Mercury in these charts is in fact not combust, being in its domicile, exaltation, or confines?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 134
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's where I discussed the difference in combustion when Combustion is involved with a significator of Mastery with Yuzuru.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4365&start=45

This is in respect to any planet the is conjoined the Sun when considered the significator of Mastery. Now most traditional authorities claim that Mercury is the planet least affected by combustion normally. Put the two together, and you have-
"Mercury as a significator of Profession is in fact fortified by combustion."
_________________
Western Predictive Astrology by Estebon Duarte Independent Researcher AMA MACAA
Natal Chart & Annual Solar Revolution Reports
www.organic-astrology.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Estebon

I don't want to be controversial about the point, or disrespect your experience, but

Quote:
Now most traditional authorities claim that Mercury is the planet least affected by combustion normally


This is what I'm curious about - whether that is generally reported traditionally. Does anyone have a traditional reference to suggest that Mercury is fortified by combustion? Personally, think it is quite a move from saying that Mercury is not so debilitated by combustion, to suggesting that it is fortified by the condition. I don't think it is even common to find traditional authors reporting that it is least affected - I'm guessing that's a relatively modern assesment.

Thanks for answering anyway. I am purely curious.

Deb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 134
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'll dig out the references for considering Mercury the least afflicted planet when under combustion.
We are not saying that Mercury is always fortified by combustion, though is fortified when considered a significator of Mastery. (I included the reference on the other thread)
_________________
Western Predictive Astrology by Estebon Duarte Independent Researcher AMA MACAA
Natal Chart & Annual Solar Revolution Reports
www.organic-astrology.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I appreciate that. I'll take a look at the other thread too.
Deb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1369
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estebon_Duarte wrote:
i'll dig out the references for considering Mercury the least afflicted planet when under combustion.
We are not saying that Mercury is always fortified by combustion, though is fortified when considered a significator of Mastery. (I included the reference on the other thread)


This is Holden version. He adds "not"



note says "adds Bonatti"

That a combust planet can signify is very strange, so I need inquire more....moreover because according Medieval authors Mercury with the Sun is proper to study because it's opposite to action.

It would be interesting hearing Dr. Dykes, because he is an expert, and moreover translated the text, or finding other similar quotes.

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To make more sense of what is being discussed here, this is what Estebon wrote in the other thread:

Quote:
Interesting is its [combustion] differing use when applied to different techniques, for example, in Abu Ali's On the Judgements of Nativities (pg.299,dykes) concerning the native's "Significator of Mastery" (Professional Significator);

"And if the Sun aspected it or were with it, so that he would even burn it up with his rays, it signifies he is a high master, and of the greatest loftiness, and a writer for kings, and of great value among them, with a noble mastery and much teaching."


I'll send Ben Dykes an email but I think he is currently travelling, so probably won't be able to check the thread for a while.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about switching viewpoints from the combust planet to the Sun regarding the chart native? So, regarding qualities of the native himself or herself, rather than questioning whether combust Mercury is weakened we can see how the Sun is increased – takes on qualities and capabilities – through Mercury. Therefore, the native's will and drive toward future personal development (Sun) are increased through the skills of Mercury.

We can still regard Mercury as weakened when he is, for example, lord of the 2nd or 7th houses, thereby showing hidden or debilitated states regarding finances and marriage. In this case we are looking away from the native and to the life circumstances.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4990
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had an interesting discussion on cazimi a while back on this thread:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4348

Some hellenistic sources refer to Mercury 'rejoicing ' when synodical with the Sun.

More generally, I have found the dispositor of the Part of Fortune often very revealing about career.
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ben



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 167
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

I saw this thread and thought I'd just add a few words about the Abu 'Ali translation. The Latin text clearly says, "so that he would EVEN burn...". The Latin word is "etiam," "even." It's an intensifying word. In fact the Latin "so that" is "ita ut," where "ita" is also a kind of intensifying and emphasizing word. So that is what the Latin says.

It is possible that in the manuscript Bonatti used (I don't have Bonatti in front of me right now), there was an abbreviation which looked either like "etiam" or "non" (not), which would make it ambiguous as to who was right. But one has to ask how the Sun could be "with" the significator without it either being under the rays or burned up. If it were only under the rays, you'd expect the text to say, "so that it is under the rays but not burned up," or something like that.

I'm not trying to address the truth of the passage here, but only what makes sense from a translation point of view.

Best,
Ben
_________________
www.bendykes.com
Traditional Astrology Texts and Teaching
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having lived without the Internet for 3 weeks and 1 day I probably shouldn't be posting without first getting caught up on discussions, but that doesn't seem to stop me from rushing right in. On page 3 of the Combustion and / or Affliction thread (which I haven't finished reading) Deb wrote:


Quote:
. . . the concept of domicile is also an expression of a planet’s relationship with the Sun. The synodic philosophy is very ancient but it was also at the heart of Arabian and Medieval natural philosophy as an explanation of how planetary influences are passed through 'celestial light'. In a nutshell, all planetary vitality originates from the Sun, which is (as Valens says) “the light of the mind” or (as Paulus says) “The Creator of the whole”’. Ibn Ezra puts it beautifully: “the Sun signifies life, for he is the greater luminary and the light of all the bodies”. So even though the combustion process is one that sees a temporarily loss of power, it is not one from which they need ‘protection’ because it is through this process that their power is regenerated.

But the loss of visible light is also important, since ancient astrology associates brilliance with power and the loss of brilliance with the loss of power.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5285&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

I've used this quote because it helps focus my initial post of this thread. The relationship is synodic, but these discussions seem to center on the combust planet with little about the Sun itself. If light and vitality is given to the planets from the Sun it seems that understanding the rest of the relationship would require consideration of what the Sun gets from the planets. I could imagine the possibility of ancient thought seeing the Sun as taking back its changed light and vitality from the planets by way of combustion, and thereby taking in the experience of each planet during its recent cycle. The planets are sent out, they return back and inform the Sun – the Sun is strengthened and increased through receiving the experience of the planets.

It is said that a god dies when there is no one left to worship him. Similarly, we have in the Old Testament “I the Lord your God am a jealous God”. The Sun/God has its needs. A king needs ministers and subjects who bow and scrape. Maybe the Sun needs to periodically consume the planets in order to take in the now altered vitality that it had sent outwards. Likewise, a person with a combust natal Mercury possibly needs to enter a Mercury-oriented vocation in order to give the Sun what it needs, reflecting what the person needs in order to develop, strengthen and expand.

My apologies if anyone has already made this point in either of the two threads. I do get impatient.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the clarification Ben.

Mark wrote:
Quote:
Some hellenistic sources refer to Mercury 'rejoicing ' when synodical with the Sun.

But the synodical contact is obviously referring to the Cazimi principal rather than the general state of combustion, so I’m not sure that helps this discussion.

Given that the Abu Ali comment is affected by the possibility of confusion in transmission, does anyone know of any other ‘fortifying’ comments in other traditional sources? If not, I would be suspicious of the reliability of that one remark, even if Bonatti hadn’t questioned it.

Deb

PS, welcome back the forum Kirk Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1369
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much for the kind reply, it was very appreciated.

Just I'd like to add to Estebon that the problem is that significators of profession are Venus, Mercury and Mars and among these, Venus and Mercury are always quite near the Sun, so if we want consider them when they are invisible too, it means in practice we always should consider, so it would be quite useless choosing.

This is Ptolemy about career

For it will be needful to look both for the planet that has made its morning appearance closest to the sun, and that which is at mid‑heaven, particularly when it occupies the application of the moon;

I found a very good example, this is the way I would read - anyway as I told, for me this method sometimes works, sometimes not and we are obliged to take everything. In this case I think it's a good example of the working example.

River Phoenix, the famous actor



Mars is invisible and so we can easily discard.

Mercury and Venus.

Both are in the western side where they are stronger, and both are in their domicile.
But Venus is quite fast and visible, while Mercury, very slow, is going to its station in a few days.

Venus in this chart is very strong, it occupies its sign, in phase to the Sun.

Mercury should be invisible because its arcus visionis is lesser than the given value for setting.

So here the planet which gives profession is VENUS, which is proper for an actor.

Then we can add some note about Jupiter, on the Ascendant, sextile to the Sun, ruler of the MC: which -according Ptolemy- If Jupiter testifies, they will be athletes, wearers of the wreath, persons deemed worthy of honours, and men who derive advancement from women.

Well I think it's proper for River Phoenix, he was not the kind of guy we meet in the bus every morning Smile

But let us say this is rare case, sometimes I become mad....

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated