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Career in traditional natal astrology
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Dione T



Joined: 13 Nov 2009
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marguerita, why is mars invisible in River's chart?
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dione T wrote:
Marguerita, why is mars invisible in River's chart?


Mars is very near to the Sun...

Anyway in CieloeTerra they recommend to their students a little free software called PLSV

http://www.alcyone.de/plsv_short_description.html

which stands for PLANETARY, LUNAR, STELLAR VISIBILITY

This is for Mars



Mars makes its heliacal rising on the 17th September.

In CieloeTerra they use it a lot, because heliacal phases are very important, as we are discussing in this thread.

I know now there is another software produced by Rumen Kolev, it's expensive but it looks very nice seeing screenshot.

margherita
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Dione T



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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:

Mars is very near to the Sun...

I thought you meant combustion (though they are a sign apart) but apparently you do not. Thank you for explaining and for the link.
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margherita



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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dione T wrote:
margherita wrote:

Mars is very near to the Sun...

I thought you meant combustion (though they are a sign apart) but apparently you do not. Thank you for explaining and for the link.


No, in fact. Generally it is required that the planet is in its heliacal rising, or at least some phase to the Sun.

margherita
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Estebon_Duarte



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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:


Just I'd like to add to Estebon that the problem is that significators of profession are Venus, Mercury and Mars and among these, Venus and Mercury are always quite near the Sun, so if we want consider them when they are invisible too, it means in practice we always should consider, so it would be quite useless choosing.



This is the clincher in my practice. We are talking about Professional
Significators being combust. Not generally combust planets. Margherita's statement is the clear understanding of what is implied when calculating the professional significator. Further, combustion should be considered in a different manner when delineating Mastery.
I'm not saying any of you should do it, I'm just saying that I do.
The reference is clear enough for me, without trying to find transmission errors.
If we treated every Specialized Technique by Generalized Astrological Rules then there would be no delineation and no real prediction. Somewhere we need to just practice it.
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Estebon_Duarte



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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:


Given that the Abu Ali comment is affected by the possibility of confusion in transmission, does anyone know of any other ‘fortifying’ comments in other traditional sources? If not, I would be suspicious of the reliability of that one remark, even if Bonatti hadn’t questioned it.

Deb



I don't see Ben's remark as a suspicion of reliability. It seems that Bonatti either had a bad copy or Holden took a short-cut. We are never going to get all the ancient authorities to agree completely on any one thing. I do think it a broad jump from Ben's post to say "Given that the Abu Ali comment is affected by the possibility of confusion..."
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Deb
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I do think it a broad jump from Ben's post to say "Given that the Abu Ali comment is affected by the possibility of confusion..."


I'm sure Ben translated what he had correctly, but Bonatti is shown as having doubted its correctness. Things do get lost or corrupted in transmission - I have no idea if that's the case here, but I was making the point that there ought to be more than one single reference if this is a principle.
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margherita



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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estebon_Duarte wrote:

I don't see Ben's remark as a suspicion of reliability."


You don't know me if you think I don't trust Dr. Dykes.
On the other hand he is one of the very few I consider, because he has a true background and CV to show. We need more like him.

margherita
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the River Phoenix chart on the previous page:

I don't see how a cadent 12th house Venus could be taken seriously as an indicator of profession. The Ld of the ASC (Mars) and the Ld of the MC (Sun) are conjunct in the 10th house. Jupiter is sextile the Sun and importantly conjunct the ASC. It seems like a waste of time to linger over Venus for profession considerations. In hindsight we know him to have been an actor, but I can't see Venus as a strong indication for anyone who didn't know who he was. Confused

The Mercury, Venus, Mars technique seems to be a (weak) secondary factor at best for determining profession and should be a relatively minor consideration – in my view. In this chart the Venus sextile to the MC looks more significant as a determining factor, but even then it doesn't really jump out and shout.


EDITED TO ADD: The Sun at home in the house it rules – the 10th. The Sun wants public display and honors and uses the chart native (Mars as ASC Ld.) to achieve it. Maybe acting and celebrity chose him rather than he chose acting and celebrity. Celebrity – a distinctly modern profession – chose him via one of the best ways to get it these days: film and television acting. The Sun has its needs, you know . . . and it used combust Mars to fulfill them Smile. Yes, I am saying that the true profession here was celebrity, with acting as merely a means to achieve it. The death at age 23 on a sidewalk in a cloud of drugs may have cinched it – celebrity assured.


Last edited by ### on Fri May 07, 2010 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GR



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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kirk,

I'd add that Saturn has some signification for actors, though I don't remember if my proper reference is Ptolemy, Rhetorius, or GR. Very Happy Plus, if I'm adding in my head correctly, the Lot of Spirit is in Aquarius and that lot has signification for profession. I'd agree with you that Venus would not be the thing I'd be looking at for profession, directly at least (it is the domicile ruler of Saturn, however ...)
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Deb
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd add that Saturn has some signification for actors, though I don't remember if my proper reference is Ptolemy, Rhetorius, or GR


According to an earlier post, it's your own interpretation of Valens saying that Saturn rules those who have a false appearance (which I don't think is the same thing).
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=41524

I haven't had any experience of using this traditional approach to estimating career myself, but I found Margherita's analysis interesting because it seems to be exactly as Ben Dykes presented and demonstrated the technique during his recent lectures in London. Whereas Margherita refers to ptolemy, I think Ben was explaining the approach as described in his recent Persian translations.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Kirk

I completely relate to your comments. After seeing some hundreds of charts you start to see that the problem is deep (I personally use a "blind method" so hindsight is not an issue. That really shows that the "mechanical" method simply doesn´t work).

About venus in sextile MC, please see my second post in this thread. I would not be too worry about venus being in the 12th... for a planet to be in aspect to the MC, he will be likely to be in houses with some negative connotation anyway (specially 12th, 8th, 6th), so I think this is like counting the same thing twice.

Maybe this venus in 12th could me understood more easily seeing his love life or the houses that venus ruled.

Quote:
Somewhere we need to just practice it

Agree. I feel this thread has become the combustion thread all over again. I will blame on mercury retrograde Lala Happy Maybe we need some mystery charts.
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margherita



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Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Kirk, Deborah, Yuzuru and all

Kirk wrote:

The Mercury, Venus, Mars technique seems to be a (weak) secondary factor at best for determining profession and should be a relatively minor consideration – in my view. In this chart the Venus sextile to the MC looks more significant as a determining factor, but even then it doesn't really jump out and shout.
.



At the moment I still had no possibility to hear Ben Dykes, but I'm happy to hear that what I wrote is in agreement with what he teaches.


I believe that the Mercury, Venus, Mars technique is Ptolemy method, Paul Alexandrinus method, throughout all the Renaissance, Cardano, Giuntini, Lilly. This is Lilly:

http://books.google.it/books?id=JBB8ycvNCwYC&lpg=PA481&dq=Lilly%20christian%20astrology%203&pg=PA624#v=onepage&q&f=false

Paulus Alexandrinus explains better than Ptolemy: Mercury, Venus and Mars are the planets of the activities because are the planets of the "swift motion."

Jupiter and Saturn cannot be the significators, can just give add some notes.

Anyway I agree that sometimes the method gives unclear results; but this I told many times in this thread- for me it's a difficult chapter to understand. And River Phoenix is one of the simpler examples I saw, because planets are in the place where they should be, and Venus can be the only significator. It's not always like that.

I study with one of closest friends of Bezza, and sometimes he gives us a "mystery chart" and sometimes some well known figure, so I'm accustomed to both.

margherita
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###



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Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Margherita (and Yuzuru),

I had been considering coming back and pointing out that you did indeed say the technique wasn't always effective. I do think it's a valid technique – something to throw into the pot with other techniques. But in this particular case Venus just doesn't feel especially indicative. The sextile to the MC surely does say something about the career itself – its ups and downs, favorable influences, etc. But the way I keep seeing it is that Venus being cadent to the ASC doesn't bring the chart native to that particular career or that career to the native. To me Venus sextile the MC here merely speaks of the circumstances of the career itself – almost like viewing it as separate and apart from the chart native. But it's very possible I'm just looking at it all wrong.

I also was wondering about Venus and acting. At first I assumed that that was indeed correct, but then doubts started creeping in and Mercury seemed just as possible as one who orates and mimes. Or the Moon as one who changes shape and reflects experience to the public. . . Question



Gabe,

Saturn? He seems too dense and heavy for the necessary adaptability and flexibility of acting. Confused [There we go! Idea Adaptability and flexibility – two words that point toward Mercury and the Moon as good (better?) choices as significator of actors.]

You and Yuzuru both mentioned the Lot of Spirit for profession indications. The connection with the Sun does seem like a natural choice. I suppose this means I need to get over my hesitation of using any lots at all – I seldom even have the PoF displayed on-screen anymore.
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yuzuru



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Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But the way I keep seeing it is that Venus being cadent to the ASC doesn't bring the chart native to that particular career or that career to the native. To me Venus sextile the MC here merely speaks of the circumstances of the career itself – almost like viewing it as separate and apart from the chart native. But it's very possible I'm just looking at it all wrong.


My opinion on this is that is the other way around.... venus to the MC (and no other particular strong influence - ceterus paribus), bring the native to the particular career, and the position of venus by sign and house merely speaks of the circunstances of the career itself, for instance his death by drugs.

I also thought about other possible significations (for instance, there is quotes on the tradition that mercury could be athletes), but if we are going to use these possibles significations, IMHO, we will be even more confused and away from a good delineation. If Mercury can be athletes, Saturn can be actors, etc, hindsight will turn into the only option to see career and vocation.
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