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Career in traditional natal astrology
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 944
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
Dione T wrote:
Marguerita, why is mars invisible in River's chart?


Mars is very near to the Sun...

Anyway in CieloeTerra they recommend to their students a little free software called PLSV

http://www.alcyone.de/plsv_short_description.html

which stands for PLANETARY, LUNAR, STELLAR VISIBILITY

This is for Mars



Mars makes its heliacal rising on the 17th September.

In CieloeTerra they use it a lot, because heliacal phases are very important, as we are discussing in this thread.

I know now there is another software produced by Rumen Kolev, it's expensive but it looks very nice seeing screenshot.

margherita


Delphic Oracle does this as well and has the advantage of displaying this on the graphic ephemeris like this:

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/help-do5/do2870.html
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Location: USA

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello all,

Deb,

Yes, thank you, now I remember, blinded as I often am by my own brilliance. Razz

I'd like to pick out a sentence out of the Robbins trans. of Tetrabiblos, pg 387., about both Mercury and Venus running the "Quality of Action", to keep harping on my defense of Saturn here.

Ptolemy wrote:
For they produce workers in the theater, actors, dealers in slaves, makers of musical instruments, members of the chorus, makers of strings, painters, dancers, weavers, and wax-molders. and again, if Saturn testifies to them, he produces those in the aforesaid callings, as well as dealers in feminine finery.


Kirk,

It's not just all about the flexibility, it's about lying, especially when someone does it so well that they almost seem like they become that part they were portraying.

Margherita (with Yuzuru as backup Wink ),

OK now that you've explained a bit more and I've looked at that chart more, I get why Venus is important, but I think we can make a case at taking Ptolemy's conditions more seriously. The Sun is in Virgo with Mercury in the same sign, about to go retrograde, hence perfecting the aspect and not in danger of bring burned by virtue of being in his own sign. So I think Mercury gets to have some say. And Saturn, well, it's the exalted lord of the sign where Venus resides, as well as the confine lord of the degree of the MC, it also casts rays at the 10th sign, is in a pivot, and will receive an aspect from a retrograde Mercury.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Gabriel,

GR wrote:

I'd like to pick out a sentence out of the Robbins trans. of Tetrabiblos, pg 387., about both Mercury and Venus running the "Quality of Action", to keep harping on my defense of Saturn here.



yes, but in "Ptolemy" (see below) Saturn can only add, alone it cannot do any profession. Bezza translates "when Mercury and Venus have the rulership signify the activities coming from the Muses' arts."
Here it's mostly Mercury and Venus, more than Saturn.


Quote:
Margherita (with Yuzuru as backup Wink ),

OK now that you've explained a bit more and I've looked at that chart more, I get why Venus is important, but I think we can make a case at taking Ptolemy's conditions more seriously.


this is usual problem. A lot of astrology is "Ptolemy" method; we cannot discard so easily because almost everybody read profession like that.

Moreover according Feraboli- the translator of the other version of Italian Ptolemy- this is the standard method in many Greek astrologers. For example this is Vettius Valens:

Hermes in a hexagon with Aphrodite or together with it make those who are born be sagacious, charming, lovers of music, fond of play, jesters; at other times poets, songwriters, singing instructors, actors in mimes, in comedies;


I know I'm little boring but if we want to do Medieval and especially Renaissance astrology- Lilly included- we should always look to Ptolemy.

Quote:
The Sun is in Virgo with Mercury in the same sign, about to go retrograde, hence perfecting the aspect and not in danger of bring burned by virtue of being in his own sign. So I think Mercury gets to have some say.


For different reasons, I think you are right. Mercury even if invisible, we should consider.

Quote:

And Saturn, well, it's the exalted lord of the sign where Venus resides, as well as the confine lord of the degree of the MC, it also casts rays at the 10th sign, is in a pivot, and will receive an aspect from a retrograde Mercury.


Feraboli says that Saturn with Venus and Mercury makes earnings from art. She quotes Manethone (I don't know exactly how you call in English).

And Jupiter in the angle - because angles are very important makes the success- she mentions Valens, but now i have not time to find the quote.

margherita
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think these differences can be explained in how "profession" is defined. Schmidt has said that Saturn has the role of "tax collector" (I don't know the source). Jupiter is said to not have a profession because he is "noble"; as royalty, he has his hands on many things as does the Sun, but are not engaged in any "one" trade exclusively. The idea that Mercury and Venus have professions are probably because they are inferiors, and Mars does because it is "servile".
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Curtis,

zoidsoft wrote:
I think these differences can be explained in how "profession" is defined. Schmidt has said that Saturn has the role of "tax collector" (I don't know the source). Jupiter is said to not have a profession because he is "noble"; as royalty, he has his hands on many things as does the Sun, but are not engaged in any "one" trade exclusively.


interesting idea. I never heard about it, but is sounds nice.


Quote:
The idea that Mercury and Venus have professions are probably because they are inferiors, and Mars does because it is "servile".


No. Here see for example Paulus Alexandrinus. He explains this chapter better than Ptolemy.
It's because Mercury, Venus and Mars are swift in motion as the action should do.

The same the lights, Moon and Sun, even if we consider in another way. For the Sun we take the heliacal phase.

We have a very famous poem about Napoleon. It says (english version)


From Pyramids to heights alpine
Flashed that god's swift lightning-stroke;
From Manzares to the Rhine
Rapid, crashing thunders broke,
Rolling on from Scylla's sea
Shaking farthest Muscovy.

Napoleon's actions were swifter than his thought. It was this who made of him, the hero Napoleon.


p.s. sorry I did not mention your software between the ones calculating the phase, just I did not know. In CieloeTerra they use since many years PLSV, so it was the one I know better.

margherita
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Margherita,

The way that passage goes in the Robbins, Mercury and Venus alone seem more to incline to music or poetry, then with Saturn into acting, etc., and then Jupiter into lawyers, etc.; so I do think that Saturn and his nature and volition have some purchase on the profession. But it is true that the method Ptolemy mentions must not be of his own design but again one that he has read or heard about. If it was up to him, he would have probably devised something simpler!

Manethone is maybe Mantheo?

As for Mercury, Venus, and Mars giving the signs for mastery because of their speed (which I find odd that Mars is in that group, being so erratic in his motives/movements), I'd can remark that a slow slave will be a beaten one. Twisted Evil Thanks, Curtis, for that one.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again Gabrielm

GR wrote:
Hi Margherita,

The way that passage goes in the Robbins, Mercury and Venus alone seem more to incline to music or poetry, then with Saturn into acting, etc., and then Jupiter into lawyers, etc.; so I do think that Saturn and his nature and volition have some purchase on the profession.



This is the quote from Robbins:

Again, when two planets are found to rule action, if Mercury and Venus take the rulership, they bring about action expressed by the arts of the Muses, musical instruments, melodies, or poems, and rhythm, particularly when they have exchanged places. For they produce workers in the theatre, actors, dealers in slaves, makers of musical instruments, members of the chorus, makers of strings, painters, dancers, weavers, and wax-moulders. and again, if Saturn testifies to them, he produces those in the aforesaid callings, as well as dealers in feminine finery.

in my Italian translations, which are independent and in some disagreement sometimes, it looks like Saturn makes the money from it.

Bezza translates "those who are OCCUPIED in these activities and the dealers....." and Feraboli "merchants of the things above listed and of feminine finery."

I found one of the quotes mentioned by Feraboli, Valens, I,21

Kronos, when it is suitably figured, appoints the lords of foundations, possessions.

Feraboli is not the first comer with astrology. She is not an astrologer, but she almost writes only about hellenistic astrologers.

Manethone is maybe Mantheo?

I found it the author, this is the work:

Manethonis Apotelesmaticorum qui feruntur Libri VI relegit Arminius Koechly. Accedunt Dorothei et Annubionis Fragmenta astrologica, Lipsiae 1858.


Quote:
As for Mercury, Venus, and Mars giving the signs for mastery because of their speed (which I find odd that Mars is in that group, being so erratic in his motives/movements), I'd can remark that a slow slave will be a beaten one. Twisted Evil)


Well not so wrong Smile

Anyway I always think to Manzoni's Napoleon, it's a very famous poem. It's the speed of the action who makes the MAN.

margherita
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astroart



Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 141
Location: Varna, Bulgaria

Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Abu Bakr(Albubater) the significators of profession are:

"According to Ubelius and Vebinus look at Medium Coeli and his Lord, and also the Almuten of Magistery , his Part[of Magistery] and his Lord[of the Part].See who is the Almuten over all these places and whether it is one or more. Look at his nature and mix it with the Almuten of Ascendant."

Albubater, De nativitatibus, Nürnberg, Iohannes Petreius, 1540, p.200
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Mike



Joined: 19 Jul 2007
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is important to never confuse work with vocation. Many people hold jobs they don't have the required interest, ability, education or character for. This may explain some problems in astrological interpretations.
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Lazarus



Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 88

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:53 pm    Post subject: Other considerations Reply with quote

Hello folks I realize this feed is 5 years old now but I just discovered it and it has been helpful reading the comments. I just want to add that in the Zoller lessons (DMA) he urges you to not consider delineation separate from the Rank of Fame (Ptolemy) and the Financial Significator(s). This makes sense to me as he also writes that Profession is more a consideration of the person's essence and not necessarily where they will make their money. Therefore if we take into consideration the major and minor source of finances for the native and what they are likely to be recognized or known for, even on a small level, we can weigh these testimonies together and if we see certain themes being repeated more than others then this should help us hone in on the profession and/or the likely job(s) the native will have or be geared toward. I'm still relatively knew to this but the major thing I take away from all of these ancient techniques is that they absolutely have to be considered in the context of the whole chart. I believe this is why Bonatti wants us to begin with the Asc rather than the Sun (as Ptolemy does).
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