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Mercury Beseiged?

 
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:52 am    Post subject: Mercury Beseiged? Reply with quote

Am I reading this right? Otherwise a terrific Mercury, but it's separating from a conjunction to Mars, and it's going to trine Saturn just before it sextiles the Moon.

I'm operating on the premise that beseigement doesn't have to be by bodily conjunction - if I'm wrong, let me know.



Opinions?


Last edited by Olivia on Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it is besiegement.

Mercury is in his own sign.
Separates from mars.
Separates from Jupiter in cancer (of course, this is not the closest aspect)
Separates from the moon in scorpio
Applicates to Saturn in capricorn.

Saturn being dignified I believe this is not your normal besiegement. But anyway mercury is suffering not so nice aspects from moon and mars. I believe this will bring problems in relationships when one or both of them take command of time lords.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ETA Sorry, I misread that.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
ETA Sorry, I misread that.


You're right. If another body or even aspect intercedes then it's not beseigement.

So in your chart, Mercury wouldn't be besieged. In this one, it is. It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out with so much in domicile or exaltation, and Venus and the Moon in fall. And I'm finally beginning to really be able to wrap my head around it.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Olivia! You're right when you say that, traditionally, a planet is besieged when it is "surrounded" by the two malefics and inside the same sign i.e. when it is leaving con junction with one and heading towards the conjunction with the other malefic.

Yet, I find it somewhat difficult to dismiss a situation in which a planet is separating from one malefic and applying to the other even when both aspects are not conjunction and especially when one of them is. I don't know if I would call besiegement (though, in a way, it is "surrounded" by the two malefic) but I would certainly pay close attention to such a placement because the planet is still exposed to two "malefic" influences i.e. it is in the middle of the battlefield; leaving one malefic and applying to the other one without forming any other aspect in the meantime.

In this case, the situation is, indeed, very interesting because both planets (Mercury and Saturn) are essentially beautifully dignified and applying to each other in a trine. Another important thing is that Saturn is the ruler of the Ascendant.
But, as always, I'd simply examine the rest of the chart and all other relevant placements that might either support or annul this influence. In this particular case, I believe that we might have more than one additional testimony of stressful activities all focused onto or coming from the sphere of life described by the 7th house.

Mercury is leaving Mars but iot is leaving combust Mars smack on the 7th cusp. At the same time, this saturn, though essentially strong, is also retrograde and actually "trapped" between two outer planets (almost another besiegement). A top of all that, mercury rules the 5th and the Moon is conjunct Pluto. I don't know know the gender of this native but, generally speaking, I would take all these placements as mutually supportive testimonies of posible stresful activities pertaining to marriage, relationships, public appearances, partners...and so on, in accordance with the symbolics of the house. But, given that this Mercury is actually the ruler of the 5th and 4th, I'm pretty sure that it is most likely to affect the private life.
Just my twopence! Wink

aglaya
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturn's not beseiged, though. It goes from Merc to the Moon - not to the outers. Not that I use them much anyway, just finally got a new-ish computer, reinstalled Janus, and forgot to turn them off.

But yeah, this is one of those charts that I've been fascinated by. Note also SN on the descendant. I've actually seen that config a few times before. It sometimes happens with unwilling fame, or unfortunate fame.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
Saturn's not beseiged, though. It goes from Merc to the Moon - not to the outers.


No, of course, after all, I wouldn't actually go a far as to apply this rule to the outer planets, anyway, since there is no traditional source to support it. That is why I said that it is "almost" besieged but much better word would probably be- trapped. (And, you're right, this is one of those situations where I believe outer planets should at least stay visible in the chart- I find it so hard to take my eyes off them; they're actually touching some of the most important planets in the chart i.e. L1 and the Moon).

The Ascendant ruler is forming a bodily aspect with these two planets; the orbs are rather tight (only 2 for the conjunction with Neptune and about 6 for the one with Uranus). The planet is moving in unnatural motion and is very much exposed to the influence of the two outer planets. So, the shape of the planet that receives the influence of this Mercury is not that perfect (though, it is a good thing that it is at least in its own rulership).

And as for Mercury? it is a bit hard to examine its general shape without taking the influences that it receives into consideration.
It is also an essentially strong planet: technically, we have two essentially well dignified planets sitting in good houses (an angle and the 11th) and applying to each other in a benevolent aspect. But, the Mercury is still absorbing the influence of Mars and transferring it onto the Saturn.
Generally speaking, I think that this chart is telling one huge part of the story through the spicy details because, the first and most obvious things would probably be- Jupiter in the sign of its exaltation inside the 5th, its dispositor well dignified inside the 7th, the L7 well dignified and sitting on the cusp of the house that it rules and the ruler of the 1st well dignified inside the 11th.
But, this L1 is also retrograde and exposed to the influence of the two outer planets , the Moon is conjunct Pluto and the placements of Mars and Venus are very interesting too.
I made a mistake when I said that mars was combust ( the shape of the wheel confused me) but, with this fallen Venus inside the 7th and ruling the 8th, with Mars, the ruler of the 2nd inside the 7th and, finally, with this detrimental Moon conjunct Pluto, i'm pretty sure that, eventually, the 2nd house matter might start interfering with this native's private life. Much will depend upon the gender of this person, of course.


Last edited by aglaya on Mon May 03, 2010 1:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
Note also SN on the descendant. I've actually seen that config a few times before. It sometimes happens with unwilling fame, or unfortunate fame.

Noticed that one, it only supports the rest of the story, unfortunately. (I too have it there! Smile )
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The querent is male, and you're very right about second house matters. But even then, it's not quite what I would have expected. He's delightful, by the way, if you can accept his need to rant about things before he gets to the point - wherein we see that Mars/Merc conjunction shooting off to Saturn. I know that's what I'll hear for half an hour. It's not abusive, it's just - like there's a steam valve that has to be opened first - and boy, does THAT sound like a planet caught between Mars and Saturn.

Oddly, I don't mind. When he does hit the point, it's usually very well thought out indeed. Merc & Saturn both in rulership plus Merc in exaltation. But always by way of Mars.

Having looked up the local time of sunset, twilight, and gone through the firdar and a few other things, I'm also convinced it's a day birth.

Wanted to share because I find the chart fascinating.
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