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Termination of employment

 
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Ida



Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:43 pm    Post subject: Termination of employment Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I need some help with this horary - it's an important matter, so I don't want to make a muck of it! The question is "Will my husband loose his job?" Background to the question is that the husband is employed by a telephone company who is at present laying off quite a lot of people. The company is at loggerheads with the trade unions about it, who have even asked the Government to step in. The Company has recently (last year) been noted on the local Stock Exchange, after becoming a private company about 10 years ago (previously it was a government institution).
They have been laying off people every year for the last couple of years and so far, the husband was lucky enough to stay on, but this time it apprears that the section he is employed in, is to be closed and his immediate boss has, in fact, already received notification that he is to receive a severance package, so it would seem that it is "now or never" for the husband.
The question was asked on 29 July 2004 at 8:37PM, Pretoria, South Africa (28E10; 25S45, EET).
Asc = 18Pis39, thus Lord of the Ascendant is Jupiter
Lord of the Hour = Sun (if I worked it out correctly!) (both of fire triplicity)
Moon is not void of course, so chart appears to be radical
Querent is ruled by Jupiter, who is at 18Virgo09 in its detriment and on the 7th house cusp. Husband is ruled by Mercury (7th ruler) and the husband's employer (radical 4th) also by Mercury. I am of the opinion that in this case, the Moon should be taken as the husband's significator, as Mercury is very indicative of the employer, being very strong at 3Virgo51 (in it's own sign, exaltation, night time triplicity ruler as well as having term there). The employer is indeed very strong, holding all the cards and only thinking of itself. Since it's a telephone company, Mercury seems to be just right as its significator, too. The Moon is at 9Cap09, in its detriment (although not peregrine, being the night time triplicity ruler). Very indicative of the husband, being powerless to do something about this, so I think I'm right to use the Moon as the husband's significator. The moon is also in Mercury's terms at 9Cap09, showing the employment situation.
I'm immediately struck by the separating trine between the Moon and Mercury. This seems to me to indicate that the husband is still employed by the Company, but on his way out. Taking the moiety of the two planets involved, the aspect will be totally "over" within about 4 degrees, so he should leave the company within the next 4 weeks or months (probably weeks, as Mercury is in a mutuable sign). The Moon is also separating from a sextile with Uranus, who on his part is opposite Mercury. I'm not sure whether Uranus can be taken to represent the trade unions, but if so, would indicate the situation quite nicely, being at loggerheads with the company (applying opposition), but not really being able to do anything for the husband (separating sextile). Also, it's situated in the husband's 6th house of servants, so I feel it could represent the trade union, who is suppose to "serve" the husband in this matter. Also, Mercury is situated in the husband's 12th house, indicating that the employer has a hidden agenda (as the unions allege).
I also carefully read Lilly in this regard, in particular on p. 447 & 448 ("If one shall continue in the Office or Command he is in") and it would seem that some of the things he mentions is represented in this chart, too. In particular, he refers to the Moon being in Capricorn and in the 4th house, as is indeed the case here (the Moon being in the turned 4th). Lilly also states on p.448 "...if the Moon be joyned to a Planet, who is in the opposition to the Sign of the exaltation or house of her selfe; ..." In this case, the Moon is the sign that is in opposition to her own sign, so should have the same effect.
So it would appear that the husband is about to receive news of his employment being terminated and should in fact leave the company within the next 4 weeks or so.
But what on earth does the strong mutual reception between the Moon and Saturn in this chart indicate? Also, if one takes the moiety of the two planets, they are in opposition. Probably Saturn is an indication of the hard times that lay ahead. Saturn also represents the husband's 5th house, his children, and is also situated in the radical (querent's) 5th house, again the children. So it would seem to indicate something about their children. Also, Saturn rules the radical 11th house (querent's hopes and wishes) and is situated in the turned (husband's) 11th house. I'm totally blank on this, children, hopes, wishes, good fortune, al somehow joined together with reception and that awful opposition. It must say something, but I just can not bring it together.
Then the question of money, which is definitely relevant to this situation. The husband's money is represented by Venus (turned 8th ruler), situated in the husband's 10th house, peregrine at 22Gem54. The money is disposited by Mercury (the company) both by sign and house. The husband's money comes from the company and his current employment there. Also, he will receive a substantial severance package in the event that his services are terminated, so that makes sense. Venus is also opposite the husband's 4th house (his old age, this is his retirement money he will now have to use to make a living?) Venus also represents
the husband's 9th house of travel/education. He may have to travel/study further to earn a living in future? Interestingly, the significator of the querent's money is Mars, the very next planet that the Moon is going to apply to by way of a trine. Can this be an indication that the husband will be relying on the wife's money for some time? Mars is also the ruler of the radical 9th, again travel/education. The wife may have to spend money on travel/education to enable her husband to find a new job?
The upcoming trine between the Moon (husband) and Jupiter (wife) shows that they will be working together to overcome this unemployment problem.
Do I have anything right at all?? Any comments will be highly appreciated.

Regards
Ida
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



The chart I cast for the data you gave had 16.38 Pisces on the ascendant. Would someone else mind checking that in case there is a problem with my software? Anyway that shouldnít make any difference to this discussion.

Apologies to Ďouter planet hatersí but Iíve noticed on a number of charts where redundancy has been right through the company and there has been a sense of stripping the company down to the bones, Pluto has fallen upon the IC. It is angular on the turned 4th house here, which seems to be another case of Pluto symbolizing the internal structure of the company being broken apart in an attempt to close it down or rebuild it in a more efficient manner. Thereís also a grand trine between the Moon, Mercury and the north node, another indication that the querentís fate is consumed by events that are bigger than anything that can be personally influenced.

It looks like youíve put a lot of thought into this horary and have gathered a very good judgement upon it. I agree with your conclusions. With Saturn currently in Cancer we get that mutual reception with the Moon every time they are in opposition at the moment, causing us all to wonder whether itís capable of offering comfort to the hostile relationship. Personally, I donít think it alleviates the difficulties, but I think it shows a Ďhardeningí of the emotional reaction to problems, so that people become aware of the need to balance fear with realism, and perhaps are a bit more psychologically prepared. In this chart I see Saturn falling on the husbandís 11th house cusp, opposed by the Moon, ruler of his 11th, signifying his hopes and ambitions being dashed.

Quote:
Interestingly, the significator of the querent's money is Mars, the very next planet that the Moon is going to apply to by way of a trine. Can this be an indication that the husband will be relying on the wife's money for some time?


Thereís no trine between the Moon and Mars, but the same financial benefits are reinforced by the sextile between Venus and Mars. Thankfully there are indications of financial benefit to sweeten the event, including the part of fortune on the husbandís 2nd house, the benefics angular and the Moon applying to the asc-desc by good aspect Ė and of course the Moonís trine to Jupiter. Although you have some disappointing news to deliver, itís good that you can point out the benefits and give the querent some reassuring news. The only thing that worries me is that it all ends up with the Moon opposing Saturn. I just hope they donít overestimate the efficiency of the payout. Even so, Jupiter is angular and applying to the sextile of Saturn, so its more probable that whilst Jupiter alleviates some of Saturnís malevolency, Saturn is casting a shadow of fear and caution over what may turn out to be a very liberating and relationship-building experience for them.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In this chart I see Saturn falling on the husbandís 11th house cusp, opposed by the Moon, ruler of his 11th, signifying his hopes and ambitions being dashed.


Don't you see the Moon as being a bit stronger than Saturn maybe means that it won't be catastrphic to him? I see the Moon (husband and the course of evernts) to be stronger than this obstacle. The Moon is in its triplicity, whereas Saturn is peregrine. So in the opposition between them, I see his hopes and luck winning out over this obstacle. I do agree that this situation is made worse by this being the Moon's last major aspect. So the matter does seem to end on a difficlt note, so maybe it's best to see this as tough victory.

Very good interpretation Ida. I never would have seen all those monetery conections to his money, Venus in the turned 10th. I think it does show that his money is dependent on the company.

No one has mentioned that the company's significator Mercury is coming up to be opposite Uranus. They are going through some stresses and shocks of their own.

Pluto is also opposite to Venus, which we think shows his money, so that tends to show a breakdown of his finances, with the chance that when that's over he can rebuild.

Also Ida's planet is in the 7th house so besides being strong and angular, she is on his side and it shows by her concern here for him.
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Ida



Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Deb and Mark, for your input - much appreciated.

Regards
Ida
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Ida



Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:54 am    Post subject: Termination of employment Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

Some feedback on this horary: Last night, following an urgent application by the Unions, the Labour Court ordered the Company to stop offering voluntary or early retirement packages "until consultations have been exhausted on the need to retrench". However, the Company was granted leave to appeal. Apparently, all employees were informed by e-mail this morning, that the matter is to stand over to 14/9/04. It came to light in the last couple of weeks, and was reported on by the media, that the company declared a nett profit of about 4.5 billion SA Rands (about US$750 million) for the past financial year; that the CEO earns 30 million SA Rands per year (about US$5 million) and extravagant bonuses are being paid to senior staff - but they want to retrench 4000 people. Needless to say, the Court was not impressed, and neither the media, as South Africa has a horrific unemployment rate and this obvious flourishing company wants to retrench 4000 people.
Now, my questions are, where do I see this in the chart (firstly) and secondly, does these events constitute a change of circumstances that warrant a new chart?
My opinion is that I underestimated the effects of the applying opposition between Uranus and Mercury (the company), especially since Mercury turned retrograde 3 degrees after the aspect perfected and was therefore "hit" by the opposition again and will "hit" it once more once it turns direct again. A series of surprises and shocks for the company.
Also, Mercury is in the husband's 12th house of hidden enemies and secrets and is disposited by a very strong Sun, being the turned 12th house ruler. Could this mean that all this hidden and rather dubious goings on in the Company, will be illuminated (the Sun), as is now happening? Especially also since Mercury, being retrograde right now, will be moving back into the sign of Leo before it turns direct again? However, at the time of erecting the chart, Mercury was still direct and only went retrograde on the 14th August, some 16 days later, so I'm not sure whether it is relevant to the current chart.
The Grand Trine between Mercury, the Moon and the North Node that Deb mentioned, seems to be very relevant as well. Some more commentary in this regard, Deb, will be highly appreciated.
I'm not convinced that a new chart is warranted right now, as nothing concrete has changed. The Court Order only delayed the matter and the Company definately has the financial means to fight this. My time frame of 4 weeks is obviously not going to be correct, though.
As usual, any input and comments will be highly appreciated.

Regards
Ida
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, what would be considered the natal chart for South Africa?
(meaning its current birth data)

I'd really love to look at the transits.

Granny
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ida,

Two things that strike me in hindsight. Jupiter ruling the 10th and sitting on the descendant is very influential, making a powerful aspect to the Midheaven and Pluto upon it. Bearing in mind your original post mentioned that the Government had been asked to step in, we probably should have explored that more deeply and have expected that their involvement would help to define the outcome. Hopefully the Moonís trine to Jupiter shows their influence to be a positive one for all concerned.

Mark made a point of mentioning that Mercury, the companyís significator, is applying to the opposition of Uranus and so shocks and stresses were to be expected. How typical that all this is done with great urgency as retrograde Mercury by transit applies to the conjunction of Mars with both on the opposition of Uranus. Because the planetary alignment involving one of the main significators in this chart is so dynamic and expressive it should have been possible to predict it in advance as a time of disturbing news and sudden announcements concerning the conflict. Iíd expect it will help to reveal any underlying issues or hidden factors that you werenít aware of at the time of the question.

The chart is clearly valid and it was asked at a significant moment of importance. So even if you draw up further charts to exemplify certain aspects of the dispute I think you should continue to refer them to this horary. For example, you might want to draw up an event chart for the time the news broke to explore the potential of it, but judge it in the light of this horary. Donít be afraid of acknowledging where you donít have all the answers. Itís usual that horaries give you the confidence to make a broad overview as well as some specific judgements, but in a long running dispute like this they can also become the basis for an evolving judgement that becomes more penetrating as you witness the planetary symbolism expressing itself.

The grand trine between Mercury, the Moon and the nodes merely suggests to me that the company is involved in a fateful set of circumstances that are beyond their own control and likely to become the subject of public attention.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you really consider Mars a factor here in that opposition between Mercury and Uranus? It's in a different sign and out of orb. I hadn't factored it in at all.

And I can't make sense of the Moon being in mutual reception with Saturn. Does that make the effects less bad? I see the Moon as being stronger, so I had thought that this will make the obstacles and burdens less imposing. But that was just a guess.
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you really consider Mars a factor here in that opposition between Mercury and Uranus? It's in a different sign and out of orb. I hadn't factored it in at all.


Iím talking about the transiting opposition under which the Labour Court made the order to the Company. This had retrograde Mercury at 7 Virgo applying to the conjunction of Mars at 3 Virgo, both on the opposition of Uranus at 5 Pisces. This transit was hitting across the Mercury-Uranus opposition in the horary (with Mars exact on the horary Mercury) and so activating it.
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Ida



Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:33 am    Post subject: Termination of employment : Feedback Reply with quote

Hi All,

Well, this is one horary that I absolutely got wrong! The gentleman in question was informed yesterday, that he is to remain employed in the Company.
What happened in the meantime, is that the Company offered volutary severance and early retirement packages to everyone across the board. The husband declined this offer. The company then looked to see who accepted the offer and indicated who else had to go to make up the quota they decided on. Luckily, the husband was not one of these unfortunate folks and was informed that he possesses "critical skills", which also means that he is pretty sure of his job for the future. Heck, there's even talk of a promotion now!
So, how did I get it so totally wrong?
In retrospect, I find mixed mutual reception between the Moon (husband) and Mercury (employer), in that the Moon is the night time triplicity ruler of Mercury, and the Moon is in the terms of Mercury. But can that be enought, since the trine aspect between the two planets, is clearly a separating one?
Uranus is separating from a sextile with the Moon and applying to the opposition of Mercury. However, Uranus is not in any of the dignities of the Moon, so I'm not sure whether this is a correct case of translation. If it is, it would rather make sense, since Uranus represents electricity etc., and the husband's "critical skills" that ensured he kept his job, is electricity related (he is a DC Power specialist and certified electrician).
Perhaps the fact that Mercury turned retrograde not too long after the question was asked (5 degrees later), is relevant, resulting in the separating trine becoming an applying aspect again.
Any thoughts?

Regards
Ida
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In retrospect, I find mixed mutual reception between the Moon (husband) and Mercury (employer), in that the Moon is the night time triplicity ruler of Mercury, and the Moon is in the terms of Mercury. But can that be enought, since the trine aspect between the two planets, is clearly a separating one?


I wouldnít have thought so. We knew that the querent wasnít going to really suffer with those angular benefics and the Moon in the 10th applying to the trine of Jupiter, but itís still hard to reconcile the apparent good news with the Moonís applying opposition to Saturn which follows quickly afterwards.

I take the radical chart as most important and feel that the radical chart carries the main promise, and turned signification can only extend or reinforce that. But either way I donít see how this conclusion tallies with the Moon-Saturn opposition.

The only thing I can suggest is that this matter may not have played itself out yet. I worked for a global corporation which went through a similar event when it closed down the UK arm of its business. First we had the voluntary redundancies, then the first wave of forced redundancies with everyone else feeling very relieved. I was also one of those Ďcritical skillsí people given the firm assurance that my job was safe, and yes I also got a promotion. It all turned out to be false hope and false promises in the end: within 8 months everyone was gone (I was actually quite happy because I got a great redundancy package).

My feeling is to give this a bit more time. Iím really sorry this has been such a hard chart for you because you were so anxious to get things right. Thatís my opinion anyway. Does anybody see this differently or feel that the Moon-Saturn opposition could have been read differently?
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Ida



Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Deb - yes, I am having trouble with this chart, but it has been a great learning experience so far.
I suspect you're right, this matter has not been played out yet. With a debilitated Saturn on the cusp of the turned 11th house and also ruling the radical 11th, it would appear that the "hope" now offered to the husband, is indeed suspect (suspicion being a trait of debilitated Saturn). The opposition between the Moon and Saturn, as well as the strong mutual reception between them, can also be an indication that the matter is going to be dragged out for a long time, Saturn naturally being a slow moving planet and in Cancer, in its detriment, acting "sluggish" and "stubborn".
There seems to be a lot of reference to old age and retirement in the chart (Moon in turned 4th, Venus as significator of husband's money in radical 4th, the applying opposition between the Moon and Saturn as well as the strong mutual reception between the Moon and Saturn, who is a natural ruler of old age and subsequently retirement). So perhaps the husband will eventually leave the company on early retirement, for which he will be eligible in about 3/4 years. The fact that Venus, being the significator of the husband's money, is located in the turned 10th house (employer) and radical 4th, ruled by Mercury (the company), can be an indication of a pension that he receives as a result of his "previous" employment with the company.
I've read with interest the recent posts about timing on the forum and the fact that angular houses sometimes indicate a slow time unit. The Moon is angular in this chart, in Capricorn. Although a cardinal sign, it is also an earth sign (solid and unmoving, to me indicating slowness). There's also the opposition between the Moon and Saturn, a slow planet, as well as strong mutual reception between them. A lot of Saturn, slowing everything down. So perhaps my time line should be years, and not weeks/months (although I think that's pushing it a bit, the question really referred to now and not the distant future!)
But I do think it is safe to say that with debilitated Saturn ruling the turned 5th house, he's definitely not going to win the lottery, enabling him to retire!
Thanks for the input, I'll keep you informed.

Regards
Ida
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