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Saturngirl
Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 102
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: Derek Appleby book? |
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 Hi all!!
Can anyone recommend a Horary astrology book by Derek Appleby?
Thanks!
Wishes SG. 
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handn
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hello
He only has this one, in two versions - the original (now only available 2nd hand) and the reprint.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rev_da.html
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H. |
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Saturngirl
Joined: 03 Apr 2008
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Location: England
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:08 pm Post subject: Derek Appleby book? |
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Hi Handn!
Thank you fdor your reply.Ill look on amazon I think its available on there.
Wishes SG. 
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handn
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Yep it should be on Amazon and similar sites, not too long ago I got a good quality secondhand copy of the original version via Amazon.
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H. |
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Yep it should be on Amazon and similar sites, not too long ago I got a good quality secondhand copy of the original version via Amazon.
Regards
H. |
I have a copy of the old Aquarian Press edition but was thinking of getting the new one. I find the charts a bit hard to follow in the original edition. Does anyone know if the new edition has had the original hand written charts re-set?
Thanks
Mark
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Melina
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 21
Location: Buenos Aires
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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I have the new version, and it has both the hand written charts (the same the original Aquarian Press´ had) and an appendix with the charts re drawn in WinStar-like charts.
Best to you,
Melina
www.starryherald.com.ar
Last edited by Melina on Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mark
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Melina,
First of all welcome to Skyscript.
Thanks very much for clarifying that.
Now thats clear I will probably get this updated version. I do like Derek Appleby's style. Plus as a fellow Aquarian I love his 'heresy' of using placidus houses for horary. 
Mark
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handn
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| MarkC wrote: | | Plus as a fellow Aquarian I love his 'heresy' of using placidus houses for horary. |
On that note, back in 2008, Deb said....
| Quote: | I'm personally tempted to switch to Placidus for all my charts, because I like the time-based philosophy behind its construction; that too seems as good as any other (Another advantage for me is that most of the time, there's barely any difference from what I get with Regiomontanus anyhow.  ) |
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3565
Welcome to Heretics Anonymous
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H. |
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Melina
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
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Location: Buenos Aires
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="handn"] | MarkC wrote: | | Plus as a fellow Aquarian I love his 'heresy' of using placidus houses for horary. |
On that note, back in 2008, Deb said....
| Quote: | | I'm personally tempted to switch to Placidus for all my charts, because I like the time-based philosophy behind its construction; |
Yes, but... Appleby himself says that even though he started using Placidus, for it was the house system he used for his regular natal chart readings, he ended up using Regio...
I use Regiomontanus, only out of my personal experience that Regio tends to be more accurate (at least with the questions I´ve dealt with up to now) in terms of aspects to cusps.
Best to you.
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Mark
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Yes, but... Appleby himself says that even though he started using Placidus, for it was the house system he used for his regular natal chart readings, he ended up using Regio...
I use Regiomontanus, only out of my personal experience that Regio tends to be more accurate (at least with the questions I´ve dealt with up to now) in terms of aspects to cusps. |
I had forgotten Appleby came to that conclusion. I clearly need to reacquaint myself with the book. Its not surprising Appleby eventually leaned towards Regiomontanus. With the rediscovery of Willliam Lilly's Christian Astrology there was a natural tendency to seek to develop astrological technique through the prism of Lilly and other English 17th century astrologers.
I had long assumed Johannes Müller (Regiomontanus) (1436-76) developed this system in the late 15th century. However, it seems like so many house systems the actual origin of the system long precedes the person it is named after.
In regards the Regiomontanus system J.D. North writes in his 'Horoscopes and History' that in all probability the origin probably dates back to 11th century AD Arabic astrologers.
| Quote: | | ". . .it seems quite certain that al-Jayyini, had the method of casting the houses later ascribed to al-Ghafuqi and now known universally as Regiomontanus’s method. It is possible that al- Jayyini, a notable mathematician, developed the mathematics needed for drawing up tables for that method. . .And. . ., it is not improbable that Regiomontanus knew of his work on the subject. . . .certainly we have no earlier name than al- Jayyini to tag on to the Equatorial (fixed boundary) procedure." |
Regarding Regiomontanus being more 'accurate' I think the best house system is in the eye of the beholder.
Mark
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Melina
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
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Location: Buenos Aires
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| MarkC wrote: | [Regarding Regiomontanus being more 'accurate' I think the best house system is in the eye of the beholder.
Mark |
I couldn´t agree more!
Preach on, brother!!
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handn
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, some of the charts in the book (Derek Appleby's) are in Placidus and others are in Regiomontanus.
For the benefit of anyone who doesn't have the book but is interested, on page 11 (of the original edition of the book) there is a paragraph headed 'House Division' where he talks about his experience telling him that equal house is unsuitable for horary.
About Placidus he says 'I would suggest that Placidus is used to begin with, if only because the tables are readily available' and then 'Later you might wish to experiment with alternative systems. The reason for the mix in this book is that I began with Placidus but have now settled with Regiomontanus.'
But did he stay settled or change again?
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H. |
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | MarkC wrote:
Plus as a fellow Aquarian I love his 'heresy' of using placidus houses for horary. |
| Quote: | Handn wrote:
On that note, back in 2008, Deb said....
Quote:
I'm personally tempted to switch to Placidus for all my charts, because I like the time-based philosophy behind its construction; that too seems as good as any other (Another advantage for me is that most of the time, there's barely any difference from what I get with Regiomontanus anyhow. )
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3565
Welcome to Heretics Anonymous
Regards
H. |
Hello Handn,
Thanks for clarifying Derek Appleby's stance further.
Regarding Placidus houses for horary I was really being tongue in cheek suggesting it was 'heretical'. In reality, it has as every bit as much historical credibility as Regiomontanus if not more.
I was aware of Deb's position on Placidus houses but perhaps others are not so thanks for the link. Another traditional factor which Deb mentions in her book on houses in support of Placidus houses is their direct compatibility with the planetary hour rulers. No other other house system provides this link. Considering planetary hour rulers are traditionally so important in horary this seems a strong argument for the antiquity of the Placidus house system. I find it hard to believe this is just a coincidence.
Here is a link to an article on house systems here by Deb:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html
Here is a selection:
| Quote: | The Placidus system is purely time-based and thus offers perfect harmony with the use of planetary hours, adding credence to the claim that this could have been an original method of house division, based upon the two-hourly 'watches' of ancient astrologers, who numbered the constellations in the order that the stars within them rose to the ascendant during the twelve watches of the 24-hour period. There seems little doubt that the symbolism attached to the interpretative use of the houses has been greatly influenced from their use as 'time-markers', in which the movement of the planets' passage through the heavens, following the diurnal arc, is recognized. Each of the houses represents two planetary hours, the first starting at dawn with the ascendant. The area between the ascendant and the 12th house cusp represents the first two planetary hours, that between the 12th and the 11th the 3rd and 4th hour, and so on. The MC represents the end of the 6th daytime planetary hour, while the descendant corresponds to sunset. The 6th house is made up of the first two nocturnal hours, and so on round to the Ascendant. The division between the two planetary hours in any house is found by dividing the house exactly in two (see diagram above).
Not only is the system sympathetic to the use of these astrological hours, but it is also the system that lends itself to the most 'natural' system of Primary Directions endorsed by Ptolemy, and it is for this reason that its advocates claim it as the system he would have preferred. We have to accept an element of speculation here - we have no actual evidence from Ptolemy's work to endorse this view or suggest otherwise. Placidus does, however, remain the most popular quadrant system of house division in use today. It is often said that the reason for this is the ready availability of Raphael's Tables of Houses which refer to the system, but this seems a little unfair as its underlying philosophy is also clearly to be respected. |
In the link you provided its amusing that Deb mentions Olivia Barclay advocated Regiomontanus in part because she believed it was the system used by Ibn Ezra. According to J.D. North in Horoscopes and History Abraham Ibn Ezra (1089-1164 CE) used the Placidus house System. 
As I see it the reason Regiomontanus is more popular has nothing to do with its superiority for horary. Its simply that with the rediscovery of Lilly all the initial generation of horary teachers sought to mirror his chosen system. Equally, the pupils of these teachers sought to emulate what was then regarded as the only tried and tested authentic approach from Lilly. Thats clear from what Deb says in the thread you gave the link to.
Perhaps, with more texts on horary astrology becoming available from Persian, Arab and Medieval astrology more people will come to appreciate that various house systems have been employed for horary throughout history and that using house systems other than Regiomontanus is far from being deviant for a traditional astrologer.
A major reason for the the standard or classical house system of the medieval period (Alcabitius) being replaced by Regiomontanus from the late 15th-17th century was related to the influence of of Johannes Mueller (Regiomontanus 1436-76) as the greatest mathematician and astronomer of his age. Mueller provided greatly improved astronomical tables which seemed to provide more weight to his argument for his proposed house system.
Just as Ptolemy's astronomical achievement in creating 'handy tables' led to him to be later described as 'divine Ptolemy', Regiomontanus provided much improved astronomical tables that made his new house system seem more rational and authorative to his contemporaries. With the benefit of hindsight though I think students of traditional astrology today are entitled to seriously question whether a highly complex space based house system like Regiomontanus is really more logical or efficacious in traditional astrological terms over an ecliptic or time based quadrant house system.
To throw the cat amongst the pigeons there are even those practising horary today who use a whole sign rather than a quadrant house system. I personally, feel quadrant house cusps are best at picking up the accidental strength or weakness of planets in a local geocentric way but it just goes to show there are a variety of views out there.
Here is an interesting article by Maria Mateus comparing three examples of horary charts using the main types of sign division ie ecliptic, time based and space based.
http://www2.islandnet.com/~pjamesclark/House_Systems_Examined.htm
Mark
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handn
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the extra information Mark.
I agree there's nothing heretical about it and knew you were joking with that, I was just joining in
One of the reasons this was of interest to me is I have recently been thinking about changing to Placidus for my horary studies but somehow the change didn't seem right intuitively. I don't yet have much to base that intuition on or equally to dismiss it but who knows in future.
I think when horary resurged those years ago people stuck with Regiomontanus on the basis of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Since they were newcomers to horary I think that's a decent decision to make. The living experts in horary now have lots of experience under their belt so things are at a different stage.
Since computers make the lack of tables problem disappear I'm not surprised there are debates being had all through astrology. Something that held experiments back has been removed.
With the unearthing and translating of old texts all in all it's quite an interesting period for astrology ... the confluence of factors.
I like Derek Appleby's book and agree the charts can be difficult to read. On the other hand, they have that hand-drawn charm that computer versions lack. I also like the way in the text the author is willing to discuss some of his wrong judgements and to look for reasons why he went wrong. That's admirable in a book. He didn't write as an expert.
Regards
H. |
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Mark
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | One of the reasons this was of interest to me is I have recently been thinking about changing to Placidus for my horary studies but somehow the change didn't seem right intuitively. I don't yet have much to base that intuition on or equally to dismiss it but who knows in future. |
Following your instincts is very important with house systems as with everything else in astrology. I hope I didn't come over a rapid evangelical for Placidus.
As a divinatory art I feel its key that that horary astrologer has faith in their chosen technique whatever it is. I think that is more important than the chosen house system itself. Thus I am happy to examine other people's horary charts with the house system they are comfortable with. That kind of subjective view will probably irritate empiricists but you cant please everyone.
Over the years I have been through a variety of phases inspired by different visions of astrology. Studying with the Faculty of Astrological Studies in London in the early 1990's I learned the Equal house system. Then some other astrologers introduced Placidus to me and I took that up. I did experiment with Topocentric for a while as a more 'scientific' system although its house cusps are almost identical to Placidus. Then when I got into traditional astrology and learned horary with Deborah Houlding about 5 years ago I was taught Regiomontanus. Since then I have experimented with Porphyry, Alcabitius and Placidus.
Moreover, in regards natal work I have been studying hellenistic techniques and using whole sign houses! So I think I can safely say I have been all around the houses!
I have had issues about the extremely large/shrunken houses both Regiomontanus and to a lesser extent Placidus produces at my latitude (55 57N). In that respect Alcabitius and Porphyry produces less extreme differences. Living where I am you cant ignore the issue of the effect of latitude on quadrant house systems. For example, Campanus houses start to collapse at my latitude. During a workshop in Scotland last year Deb Houlding mentioned that she used Lilly's house system living at the same latitude he was born at. However, she conceded that if she lived somewhere like Scotland she might have to give the issue second thought.
Having said that we have experienced professional horary practitoners on Skyscript (for example Andrew Bevan in Oslo, Norway 59, 57N) who still seem very comfortable using Regiomontanus.
| Quote: | | I think when horary resurged those years ago people stuck with Regiomontanus on the basis of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Since they were newcomers to horary I think that's a decent decision to make. The living experts in horary now have lots of experience under their belt so things are at a different stage. |
Yes I agree. Not only did Regiomontanus seem tried and tested but it was used by the greatest horary astrologer known to the English speaking world! I have to state I never experienced Regiomontanus failing me. Equally, neither has Placidus. Its just I need a house system I feel philosophically attuned too. Regiomontanus works on a principle I cant personally embrace.
| Quote: | | I like Derek Appleby's book and agree the charts can be difficult to read. On the other hand, they have that hand-drawn charm that computer versions lack. I also like the way in the text the author is willing to discuss some of his wrong judgements and to look for reasons why he went wrong. That's admirable in a book. He didn't write as an expert. |
I think being able to experiement and take a risk is fundamental. In my experience the best astrology teachers seek to constantly question their understanding whether expert or not.
Mark
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