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Lots of Lots
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject: Lots of Lots Reply with quote

I am trying to identify possible Greek/Arabic sources of the lists of Lots (Sanskrit sahama, from Arabic sahm) found in medieval Indian texts. Below is one such list in translation. If anyone finds it familiar in whole or in part, I would be grateful for any pointers.

1. Fortune
2. Preceptor (= Spirit?)
3. Knowledge
4. Fame
5. Friends
6. Greatness
7. Hope
8. Ability
9. Brothers
10. Honour
11. Kingdom
12. Father
13. Mother
14. Children/Sons
15. Life
16. Water
17. Work
18. Illness
19. Love/Desire
20. Strife
21. Patience/Forgiveness
22. Science/Learning
23. Relatives
24. (unclear)
25. Death
26. Other countries
27. Wealth
28. Others’ wives
29. Others’ work
30. Merchants
31. Success in undertakings
32. Marriage
33. Birth
34. Torture
35. Faith
36. Love/Pleasure
37. Strength
38. Body
39. Dullness
40. Business
41. Falling over with drink??
42. Enemies
43. Valour
44. Means
45. Poverty
46. Dignity
47. Path [across] water
48. Bondage
49. Daughters
50. Horses
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin

I'm guessing you know about this already, but Al-Biruni has a very extensive list of lots - details on this page:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/alparts.html

Cheers
Deb
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Deb. Yes, I know about al-Biruni, but I am guessing that the Indian lists would be based on Greek/Arabic lists with the same number of lots (or fewer, if several lists have been combined). Thanks for helping me clarify that.
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Chris Brennan



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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most extensive Greek list is in the Olympiodorus commentary on Paul's Introduction. I think that there are more in that list than what you have here, although I don't know how much crossover there is without seeing the calculations in your list.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris Brennan wrote:
The most extensive Greek list is in the Olympiodorus commentary on Paul's Introduction. I think that there are more in that list than what you have here [...].

There are. I don't think the Indians would have pruned an existing list, so basically I am looking for lists with 50 or fewer lots -- preferably the same as or similar to those above. Smile
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Chris Brennan



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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Chris Brennan wrote:
The most extensive Greek list is in the Olympiodorus commentary on Paul's Introduction. I think that there are more in that list than what you have here [...].

There are. I don't think the Indians would have pruned an existing list, so basically I am looking for lists with 50 or fewer lots -- preferably the same as or similar to those above. Smile



There isn't really anything like that, in between the huge list in Olympiodorus and the relatively small lists of a dozen or a couple of dozen lots in Dorotheus, Valens and Firmicus.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris Brennan wrote:
There isn't really anything like that, in between the huge list in Olympiodorus and the relatively small lists of a dozen or a couple of dozen lots in Dorotheus, Valens and Firmicus.

Thanks; that's already quite helpful. My working hypothesis must be, then, that either an Arabic or a Sanskrit author combined several shorter lists, and/or expanded them using innovations of his own. I think we can rule out Firmicus, but the lists of Dorotheus and Valens are both likely to have been transmitted to India via Persia.

Does any particular lot stand out to anyone? How common is the Lot of Horses? (I confess I have paid very little attention to lots in my own practice.)
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Smit Mathur



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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for usefull info.. Thumbs up Lala Happy
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a list of 163 lots from Delphic Oracle 5 in Acrobat format:

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/lots.pdf

The chart is mine, but what is important here is the alphabetical listing on the left, the source text column and the formula. You can arrange in zodiacal order, but since you are reseaching the sources, alphabetical is better here. The strange looking symbol in the formula is for the Ascendant (I have a special glyph which represents the helm "oiax".
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
Here is a list of 163 lots from Delphic Oracle 5 in Acrobat format:

Thanks; that's very helpful. No horses! Smile Did the Arabs invent that one, I wonder, or the Indians? Both cultures held horses in high regard...
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
zoidsoft wrote:
Here is a list of 163 lots from Delphic Oracle 5 in Acrobat format:

Thanks; that's very helpful. No horses! Smile Did the Arabs invent that one, I wonder, or the Indians? Both cultures held horses in high regard...


I don't know. This list was given to me by Robert Schmidt back around 2006 for programming into my software and represents the earliest sources on the lots. As you know, but for the benefit of some others here, the Arabs greatly expanded that list during the middle ages.

BTW, I am back onto programming the primary directions and have finished the proportional semi-arc routines in my primary directions component and plan to at least include the circle of position and possibly Placidus under the pole variations with the Ptolemy, Naibod, Placidus and Brahe keys. The method of Dorotheus that you wrote about in chapter 2 (oblique ascensions of the bounds and rays to the ascendant) is already in Delphic Oracle 5 under the "circumambulations" option in the Time Lord List window. I have also located an algorithm for plotting stars on the screen so that I can have a 3D chart which would be useful to display arcs of direction so that you can see the logic visually.

I am in Oregon at the moment and might have to take care of some business down in Vegas mid July. I hope to have this done by this fall.
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Levente Laszlo



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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
As you know, but for the benefit of some others here, the Arabs greatly expanded that list during the middle ages.


In fact, it's already an expanded list, for most of the lots that labeled "Paulus Commentary" are possibly drawn from the Arabs.
You know, there is a vast list of lots in Olympiodorus but it appears only in one manuscript, Laurentianus 28, 34. This codex, which was copied around 1000, has a wide selection of texts, including parts of genuine works or epitomae by Hephaestio, Rhetorius and Theophilus of Edessa. As there are unique parallel passages with another manuscript, Vindobonensis philosophicus graecus 115, they must have had a common ancestor that was copied towards the middle of the 10th century. Now, while Vindobonensis contains the whole text of Olympiodorus, neither it nor the fragmentary codices of their branch (like Laurentianus, which has only Chapter 22) nor even the manuscript family edited by the school of John Abramius in the late 14th century has this list of lots. That's why when Emilie de Boer prepared the critical edition of Olympiodorus (which appeared under the name Heliodorus, a faulty correction by a user of Vindobonensis which was later picked up by John Abramius and his friends) she rightfully decided to separate this list from the other parts of the work. Unfortunately, it was only printed by a smaller typeface, which doesn't really help us to see the difference. It should have had to be put in a separate appendix - perhaps that's why Pingree used to want to make another critical edition of Olympiodorus, which restores this text in the original form it was transmitted.
There are two possibilities: either Laurentianus represents an "improved" version where some new lots devised by the Arabs are included, or all other manuscripts are faulty while it's the Laurentianus which conserves the original text. I think the first possibility is more likely since the fact that Laurentianus preserved just one chapter from Olympiodorus shows its scribe may have been uninterested in the other parts of the work (which is not the case with the remaining authors mentioned above), albeit astrological lots were among his primary concerns. Then this list, at least partially, might have been drawn from an Arabic author (such as Abū Ma‘shar) whose works were started to be translated in the early 11th century. Even if it's not the case, we'd better be cautious with the list appearing in Laurentianus when dealing with genuine Hellenistic stuff.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osthanes wrote:
zoidsoft wrote:
As you know, but for the benefit of some others here, the Arabs greatly expanded that list during the middle ages.


In fact, it's already an expanded list, for most of the lots that labeled "Paulus Commentary" are possibly drawn from the Arabs.
You know, there is a vast list of lots in Olympiodorus but it appears only in one manuscript, Laurentianus 28, 34. This codex, which was copied around 1000, has a wide selection of texts, including parts of genuine works or epitomae by Hephaestio, Rhetorius and Theophilus of Edessa. As there are unique parallel passages with another manuscript, Vindobonensis philosophicus graecus 115, they must have had a common ancestor that was copied towards the middle of the 10th century. Now, while Vindobonensis contains the whole text of Olympiodorus, neither it nor the fragmentary codices of their branch (like Laurentianus, which has only Chapter 22) nor even the manuscript family edited by the school of John Abramius in the late 14th century has this list of lots. That's why when Emilie de Boer prepared the critical edition of Olympiodorus (which appeared under the name Heliodorus, a faulty correction by a user of Vindobonensis which was later picked up by John Abramius and his friends) she rightfully decided to separate this list from the other parts of the work. Unfortunately, it was only printed by a smaller typeface, which doesn't really help us to see the difference. It should have had to be put in a separate appendix - perhaps that's why Pingree used to want to make another critical edition of Olympiodorus, which restores this text in the original form it was transmitted.
There are two possibilities: either Laurentianus represents an "improved" version where some new lots devised by the Arabs are included, or all other manuscripts are faulty while it's the Laurentianus which conserves the original text. I think the first possibility is more likely since the fact that Laurentianus preserved just one chapter from Olympiodorus shows its scribe may have been uninterested in the other parts of the work (which is not the case with the remaining authors mentioned above), albeit astrological lots were among his primary concerns. Then this list, at least partially, might have been drawn from an Arabic author (such as Abū Ma‘shar) whose works were started to be translated in the early 11th century. Even if it's not the case, we'd better be cautious with the list appearing in Laurentianus when dealing with genuine Hellenistic stuff.


The list in Delphic Oracle only contains 163 lots, the Arabs had far more later on which don't show up in this list and this is what I'm referring to. I was never saying that this list is mutually exclusive.
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Chris Brennan



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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osthanes wrote:

In fact, it's already an expanded list, for most of the lots that labeled "Paulus Commentary" are possibly drawn from the Arabs.
You know, there is a vast list of lots in Olympiodorus but it appears only in one manuscript, Laurentianus 28, 34. This codex, which was copied around 1000, has a wide selection of texts, including parts of genuine works or epitomae by Hephaestio, Rhetorius and Theophilus of Edessa. As there are unique parallel passages with another manuscript, Vindobonensis philosophicus graecus 115, they must have had a common ancestor that was copied towards the middle of the 10th century. Now, while Vindobonensis contains the whole text of Olympiodorus, neither it nor the fragmentary codices of their branch (like Laurentianus, which has only Chapter 22) nor even the manuscript family edited by the school of John Abramius in the late 14th century has this list of lots. That's why when Emilie de Boer prepared the critical edition of Olympiodorus (which appeared under the name Heliodorus, a faulty correction by a user of Vindobonensis which was later picked up by John Abramius and his friends) she rightfully decided to separate this list from the other parts of the work. Unfortunately, it was only printed by a smaller typeface, which doesn't really help us to see the difference. It should have had to be put in a separate appendix - perhaps that's why Pingree used to want to make another critical edition of Olympiodorus, which restores this text in the original form it was transmitted.
There are two possibilities: either Laurentianus represents an "improved" version where some new lots devised by the Arabs are included, or all other manuscripts are faulty while it's the Laurentianus which conserves the original text. I think the first possibility is more likely since the fact that Laurentianus preserved just one chapter from Olympiodorus shows its scribe may have been uninterested in the other parts of the work (which is not the case with the remaining authors mentioned above), albeit astrological lots were among his primary concerns. Then this list, at least partially, might have been drawn from an Arabic author (such as Abū Ma‘shar) whose works were started to be translated in the early 11th century. Even if it's not the case, we'd better be cautious with the list appearing in Laurentianus when dealing with genuine Hellenistic stuff.




Wow. Thank you for this Osthanes.
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Chris Brennan



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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osthanes wrote:


That's why when Emilie de Boer prepared the critical edition of Olympiodorus (which appeared under the name Heliodorus, a faulty correction by a user of Vindobonensis which was later picked up by John Abramius and his friends) she rightfully decided to separate this list from the other parts of the work. Unfortunately, it was only printed by a smaller typeface, which doesn't really help us to see the difference. It should have had to be put in a separate appendix - perhaps that's why Pingree used to want to make another critical edition of Olympiodorus, which restores this text in the original form it was transmitted.




Wait, so this only applies to the last section in chapter 22 though, right? That is the only one that is in the small typeface in the Greek. That still leaves a pretty extensive lot list in the previous sections leading up to that point.
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