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Primary directions calculation
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Madeleine



Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Posts: 53

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:58 pm    Post subject: Primary directions calculation Reply with quote

Hello,

I'm not very experienced in mathematics, I need some help.

When I calculate the formula :

DD = ArcSin (Sin oe x Sin ablong)
I get a negative result for Sin Ablong

Jupiter for instance is on 7° Pisces, absolute longitude is 337°
But Sin 337 = -0,3904

Can someone explain how to calculate the formula with a negative Sin please ?

Thank you very much for the assistance.

Madeleine
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1362
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Primary directions calculation Reply with quote

Madeleine wrote:
Hello,

I'm not very experienced in mathematics, I need some help.

When I calculate the formula :

DD = ArcSin (Sin oe x Sin ablong)
I get a negative result for Sin Ablong

Jupiter for instance is on 7° Pisces, absolute longitude is 337°
But Sin 337 = -0,3904

Can someone explain how to calculate the formula with a negative Sin please ?

Thank you very much for the assistance.

Madeleine



In my opinion- I hope someone could confirm this, you should take like that. Then you multiply for 0.39794..... and get - 0.15548, then you can find the cosin= -8.94 or -8°56' it's a negative declination.

Anyway according Cieloeterra tables, this is a formula just for points on the ecliptic.


In every case I avoid if you need for primary directions, you can use Morinus speculum, it gives all the required data.

I use Cieloeterra method in arraging formulae for PD, and I find there are easier, more intuitive, than Kolev method.
Anyway they are the same formulae put in a different way, Marco Fumagalli and Bezza played a little with numbers.

I explained their way in one of the post of my blog. Same result as Kolev or Morinus.

http://heavenastrolabe.net/primary-directions-with-and-without-morinus-software/

Obviously for people understanding Italian I recommend CieloeTerra course and Marco Fumagalli booklet "I moti del cielo", mine are just quick calculations. This method comes from CieloeTerra in fact.

margherita
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carriere.francois



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 107

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello margherita,

One question, about Morinus software and Mundane PD. Given the parameters used (Placidean-semi-arc / Mundane), can you match Bezza-Fumagalli results or is it impossible with Morinus? With these parameters, I cannot, acording the book I use and its examples (Danièle Jay's »Le Ciel en Mouvement»). Thank you.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1362
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

carriere.francois wrote:
Hello margherita,

One question, about Morinus software and Mundane PD. Given the parameters used (Placidean-semi-arc / Mundane), can you match Bezza-Fumagalli results or is it impossible with Morinus? With these parameters, I cannot, acording the book I use and its examples (Danièle Jay's »Le Ciel en Mouvement»). Thank you.



Hello,
I can write just for me, for what I understood, and from my experience.

From what I understood- I can be wrong- they are the same.

Studying with Giancarlo Ufficiale, a former secretary of C&T, I had the opportunity to compare the results of the spreadsheet he did with Morinus and I always found the same directions.

Anyway let's compare one "in mundo" direction taken from Bezza & Fumagalli article about the death of Lady D.
http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.Paul/Paul.html

from CieloeTerra site with Morinus.
This is taken from their article: in mundo Moon to Mars



this is the same direction ( chart data in the mentioned article ) in Morinus (Placido key)



It's the same arc and there are just 4 days of difference, so for me it could be ok-

Anyway I never read Daniele Jay book so I could not say about her calculation.

margherita
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carriere.francois



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 107

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Margherita,

Thank you for the link and explanation. There is something I am doing wrong, surely. I reinstalled Morinus (version 2.9, last may update). Now I will give the settings for Primary Directions in order to get Placidean directions as explained by G. Bezza and M. Fumagalli. I just I did not miss one.

(1) Primary Keys box (shift-k): True Solar Equatorial Arc;

(2) Zodiacal (under the pole) Primary Directions (shift-d), checked options:
* Placidian (under the pole);
* Zodiacal;
* Latitude of Significator;
* Aspects of Promissors to Significators;
* I also check ASC, MC as promissors.
* Promissors: Sun through Saturn;
* Significators: ASC, MC, Sun, Moon, Pars Fortunae.
* Aspects: 5 major ones.

With these settings, I can reproduce other calculations (Jay's for instance)...

(3) Mundane (semi-arc) Primary Directions, checked options:

* Signifcators and Promissors remain the same;
* Placidian (semi-arc);
* Mundane;

With these mundane options, I am not able to reproduce the direction example for Henri Paul for may 1972. I calculated both direct and converse PD for 0-25 yo. The best I can get is:

M (Mund) Mars (as prom) C-> (Converse) Moon (as sig) 12.997 (arc) 1969.03.20 (date).

Now, if I switch Significators and Promissorsand change nothing else, it seem ok (sic). What I get is:

M (Mund) Moon (Prom) D-> (Direct) Mars (sig) 16.168 (arc) 1972.05.13 (date).

So, I would like to know if you switch Promissors and significators for mundane, or have you seen something wrong in my settings?

Thank you.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1362
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again, Francois.

Have you used rectified chart for Henry Paul?
I wrote this birth data 1.06.30 pm.

I did not use converse directions, I just followed the motion of the sphere, so the Moon against the order of the signs from Taurus goes to Pisces, where is radix Mars.

About Daniele Jay, I managed to find an articles of hers in Phos, the journal of Cieloeterra, and you are right, her calculation does not fit with Morinus.

The method is the same I studied with Giancarlo Ufficiale, the difference in the key she uses.
She puts in her article:
1 year= 1 day
1 month= 1.97
1 day= 3.942

In my notes I have 1 month=2 and 1 day 4, so she gets a smaller arc for the date she is searching. Anyway I don't know if she took from Bezza. In the same article about Henry Paul

http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.Paul/Paul.html

Bezza and Fumagalli give different key conversions
1 month= 2 hours and 1 day= 4 degrees

I believe this is the reason calculation does not fit, because this is the only difference in the example she gives.

margherita
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carriere.francois



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 107

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Margherita,

Thank you again! I think I may have found what is wrong. In your paper, «Primary directions with (and without) Morinus Software», you show graphics of the settings.

When you explain "In Mundo" Directions, your graphic shows «Placidian (semi-arc)», «Mundane», and Zodiacal options «Promissors to Aspects of Significators». This latter parameters cannot be checked, since it not available when Mundane PD are chosen (so I stay with «Aspects of Promissors to Significators» checked).

About conversion keys and decimals, I suspect that give about few days...

By the way, what is your version of morinus (Menu Help and About)?

Maybe Robert, the developper, can explain how set these parameters (I just sent him an email to join the discussion)?...
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François CARRIÈRE
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1362
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

carriere.francois wrote:


When you explain "In Mundo" Directions, your graphic shows «Placidian (semi-arc)», «Mundane», and Zodiacal options «Promissors to Aspects of Significators». This latter parameters cannot be checked, since it not available when Mundane PD are chosen (so I stay with «Aspects of Promissors to Significators» checked).

Maybe Robert, the developper, can explain how set these parameters (I just sent him an email to join the discussion)?...


Hello again,
my article is old, now I'm using the last version of Morinus, the 2.9. So I don't check anything anymore, just Mundane, Moon (Promissor) and Mars (Significator) key: true solar equatorial arc.
Birth data : 03 July 1956 h:01:06:30 Lorient 3W21 47N45.


About Daniele Jay, I re-tried her example with another pc, and it looks this morning it works (maybe yesterday I did something wrong) , she gives the mundane direction of Saturn square Venus for 06 April 1327 and I got 21 March 1327 with Morinus.
Data are Francesco Petrarca, 20 July 1304 h:04.40.36 Arezzo, direction of Saturn to Venus square.

Anyway I will be happy to hear Robert too.

Hope soon or later he would add hourly distance and temporal hour in Morinus speculum- they can be easily found from it- but it will be nice if he could directly list them - especially for CieloeTerra members Smile

margherita
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carriere.francois



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 107

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Margherita,

A thousand thanks! Now I get the same results! Mrs Jay also uses Petrarque in her book and it was what I use for comparison.
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gothic5



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 20

Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 6:42 am    Post subject: General Question Reply with quote

Margherita-Could you please tell me where I could find the formula for points on the Ecliptic in Cieloeterra ?-Harold
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1362
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: General Question Reply with quote

gothic5 wrote:
Margherita-Could you please tell me where I could find the formula for points on the Ecliptic in Cieloeterra ?-Harold


which points on the ecliptic?
In CieloeTerra they use mundane directions (planets are considered in the Placidean houses) or zodiacal Placidian under the pole directions. In this case you should just consider the OA under the significator's pole and then calculate the arc.

margherita
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gothic5



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 20

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply Reply with quote

Margherita-I try to understand all you have said by myself, but here in New York I haven't found anyone who does these directions.I have found Skyscript ,your blog and CieloeTerra to be the helpful sources for what I am able to understand.Thanks-Harold
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jventura



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 292
Location: Portugal

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know if this is relevant for what you are trying to accomplish: http://flatangle.com/blog/2014/primary-directions-simple/
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gothic5



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 20

Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply Reply with quote

Yes-This site does have a lot of useful information-Thanks-Harold
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gothic5



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 20

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:51 am    Post subject: Question Reply with quote

Just a question about Morinus program-Under the horoscope tab (which has load,data etc.) I am not able to click on "Here and Now" option.Does anyone know how I can enable/access this option? -H
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