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Mars joys in Sixth house but why
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~Kent~



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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Mars joys in Sixth house but why Reply with quote

Why does traditional astrology consider Mars to joy in the Sixth house?
I can see it would make an energetic worker but not necessarily a cooperative one.
Wouldn’t this incline to hostility to or from co-workers?
In these times, working in a corporate environment bosses want team players.
And wouldn’t Mars in sixth suggest fevers and accidents which affect ones health?
Or would Mars in sixth give a strong constitution?
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The alchemist



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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I understand it is that Mars joys in the 6th, because his excessive and overbearing tendency to take the lead is tempered in the 6th (there he will be restricted and will have to take a subservient role). We have to remember that hermeticism and traditional astrology always sought for balance. Mars is excessively hot and dry and this might also explain why he was assigned with the rulership of the night sect of the water triplicity as well (temperance).
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why does traditional astrology consider Mars to joy in the Sixth house?


Hello Kent,

The general principle underlying the the planetary joys probably relates back to the philosophy of planetary sect. This is the idea that planets assigned to the day sect –Sun, Jupiter, and Saturn are more compatible in a day chart and above the horizon. The planets assigned to the nocturnal sect-Moon, Venus and Mars are more compatible in a night chart and below the horizon. The nature of Mercury is common ie it can be compatible in a day or night chart above or below the horizon. It tends to take its sect from its relation to the Sun.

Its useful to imagine the joys placed around an actual chart. Mercury (1st house), Moon (3rd house) , Venus (5th house) , Mars (6th house), Sun (9th house), Jupiter (11th house), Saturn (12th house). All the nocturnal planets fall below the horizon in this scheme while the diurnal planets are above the horizon.

Hence it makes sense for Mars to be assigned a house below the horizon. Why the 6th house though? It’s a cadent house so it cannot literally ‘see’ the ascendant. This adds a discordant note to begin with. The cadent houses are regarded as the most difficult houses and of those below the horizon the 6th house is the most challenging of all. Mars is the ‘lesser malefic’. As planets are seen to be weakened and to have difficulty operating in a cadent house its actually preferable to have the malefics-Saturn and Mars in cadent houses where they have less capacity to cause damage. Nevertheless, the ancient associations of the 6th house-illness, servitude and enemies are all befitting a malefic planet like Mars.

Its instructive that Mercury joys in the first house. This is the only planet in its joy that could be either above or below the horizon. This ties into Mercury’s common nature.

One thing that people can find paradoxical is why a hot , dry masculine planet like Mars is assigned to the nocturnal sect. This is because the coolness of the nocturnal placement tempers the heat of Mars and therefore assists in mitigating its malefic effect to some extent.

Bear in mind the first system of houses from when the joys originate would have been whole sign rather than a quadrant system as these are a later development. In other words the signs and houses were the same. So in a chart with Gemini rising the whole first house would be assigned to Gemini.
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Last edited by Mark on Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can see it would make an energetic worker but not necessarily a cooperative one. Wouldn’t this incline to hostility to or from co-workers?
In these times, working in a corporate environment bosses want team players. And wouldn’t Mars in sixth suggest fevers and accidents which affect ones health? Or would Mars in sixth give a strong constitution?


Very difficult to really answer these kind of issues in any meaningful way without falling into cookbook mode. As with all astrology its a complex weaving of various factors in a delineation. First it needs to be recognised that the planetary joys are a fairly minor consideration in delineating a chart. Far more important in determing how a planet may express itself are the essential and accidental dignities. In terms of essential dignities Mars in its sign of domicile rulership (Aries) or exaltation (Capricorn) would be more positive in influence. Other crucial considerations include planetary sect. In a night chart Mars is better integrated than in a day chart. Traditional astrologers would also weigh up considerations such as planetary phase. As a superior planet Mars is more positive in its its waxing phase (oriental) to the Sun (ie rising before the Sun) and potentially more destructive in its waning phase (occidental) to the sun (ie rising after the Sun). Other considerations are of course the aspecual contacts made by Mars and which houses it rules.

In terms of how Mars might influence a chart we would need to look at both the meanings of the 6th house and the houses Mars is influencing through rulership. That would include not just sign ruler but other kinds of rulership such as exaltation, triplicity, bound ( term) and decanate ( face).

I dont have access to my books right now so I working from general principles and cannot offer any quotes from texts. However, here are a few general thoughts.

Mars in the 6th could certainly be describing possible kinds of ill health as you described. No matter how well placed the malefics always retain the potential to cause harm. Its simply an issue of how mitigated this is by positive indicators in the chart. So it really depends on how positive or negative an expression of the planet we are dealing with and the signs involved. Hence if you had say Mars in Cancer, in day chart, occidental of the Sun and squaring the Saturn its fair to assume you are may have conflicts in your work environment! A poorly placed Mars in the 6th could also reflect difficulties a manager might have with their employees. However, there are more positive interpretations available. For example, a person with Mars in the 6th might be an advocate and fighter for the oppressed and downtrodden.

In ancient Greek astrology and in Indian astrology today the 6th house has a link to enemies. In this instance the enemies seem to be generally destructive in a disinterested way rather than specifically seeking to harm the native as an open opponent (7th house) or secret enemy (12 house).
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~Kent~



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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The alchemist wrote:
The way I understand it is that Mars joys in the 6th, because his excessive and overbearing tendency to take the lead is tempered in the 6th (there he will be restricted and will have to take a subservient role). We have to remember that hermeticism and traditional astrology always sought for balance. Mars is excessively hot and dry and this might also explain why he was assigned with the rulership of the night sect of the water triplicity as well (temperance).


Alchemist

Thank you. You write very clearly. What you say makes sense to me. In traditional schemes the two malefics find joy in the two “weakest” cadent houses which has a tempering effect as you say and sort of keeps them from spreading their malefic influence.

But doesn’t this idea fly in the face of Mars being domicile and dignified in Aries, where it is pure Mars unaffected by other planetary rulers? Aries corresponds to the First house where a planet has maximum exposure and influence. And also, Mars is exalted in Capricorn, the cardinal earth sign suggesting Mars works best when grounded and strategically engaged in a lot of well-planned, practical activity. Capricorn corresponds to the Tenth house, the other most influential and dominating house.

Either Mars should be tempered or very powerful, influential and noticeable. But you can’t have it both ways.


Last edited by ~Kent~ on Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Either Mars should be tempered or very powerful, influential and noticeable. But you can’t have it both ways.


House placement and essential dignity are two different things which you are conflating. Essential dignity ie placement by sign relates more to the inclination of the of the planet we are dealing with. Accidental dignity is more about ability to act. Mars well placed by essential dignity means the planet is harmonious in that sign and better able to express its positive associations. However, if it is in a cadent house it may not have the opportunity to express itself. I always compare this to criminal profiling. Essential dignity (sign placement) =motive, Accidental dignity ( house placement) =opportunity.

Incidentally, the idea that the signs link to the houses in order you suggest ie Aries=1st house etc is not something emphasized at all in traditional astrology. The only time it ever gets a mention is specifically in relation to parts of the body linked to houses. The original meaning of the houses has more to do with things like the diurnal motion of the planets and their relationship to the ascendant. I highly recommend Deborah Houlding's book 'The Houses: Temples of the Sky' which is the best book vailable on the historical origins and associations of the houses.
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Last edited by Mark on Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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~Kent~



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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark

I admit bringing in house-sign correspondences but I don't admit conflating them. Smile

Let me just say Mars is dignified in Aries.
He has no other planetary ruler and so is not tempered or restricted in any way by sign.
We consider this good.
But Mars is considered joy in 6th house because there he is tempered.
The ideas seem contradictory to me.

Quote:
Accidental dignity is about ability to act

I thought Mars was accidentally dignified in 1st house which is to lend him strength and more ability to act.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kent wrote:
Quote:
I admit bringing in house-sign correspondences but I don't admit conflating them.


I was referring more to your description of the placement of planets by sign and houses.

Kent wrote:
Quote:
Let me just say Mars is dignified in Aries.
He has no other planetary ruler


Actually, strictly speaking he does in traditional astrology. We dont just focus on domicile (sign) ruler. There are 4 other kinds of planetary ruler as I mentioned above.

Here is a table of essential dignities to assess the different rulers of a zodiacal degree: domicile (sign), exaltation, triplicity, term (bound), face (decanate).

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html

Quote:
and so is not tempered or restricted in any way by sign.


As I stated above whether Mars is restricted or let loose so to speak relies more on house placement than sign placement.

Quote:
But Mars is considered joy in 6th house because there he is tempered. The ideas seem contradictory to me.


I hope I have made it clearer what the difference is there. However, you are right in general terms that Mars in Aries is better because its malefic potential is lessened and it is harmonious in that sign. Equally, Mars being in a cadent house lessens its ability to act. Traditional astrology is full of various considerations that can be seem to weaken or strengthen a planet. For example, William Lillly the famous 17th century astrologers compiled a table of essential and accidental dignities for point scoring planets. There are different versions of this idea and I think over literalism should be avoided in weighing differeing components. Otherwise it could become an OCD 'astrology by numbers' exercise. However, you might find this extract from Lilly's Christian Astrology useful in explaining the factors that can be used to weight the strength of a planet traditionally:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html#liltab

Quote:
I thought Mars was accidentally dignified in 1st house.


Any planet is as its an angular house. However, in the case of the malefics the general principle that planets gain accidental dignity or power in angular houses needs to be weighed against the potentially destructive nature of these planets. Certainly, if I was electing a chart I would usually try to avoid making the malefics strong by electing them in an angular house.
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Last edited by Mark on Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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margherita



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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Certainly, if I was electing a chart I would usually try to avoid making the malefics strong by electing them in an angular house.


To be honest the idea to elect something putting Saturn and Mars in the 12th or 6th house makes me shiver.
Astrological texts are full of nice possibilities "Mars in the 6th produces illness and or dangers or deception from servants or conviction of jail, especially in the day. At the angle, then, it is deadly. " (Rhetorius)

"Saturn in the twelfth house indicates an uprising of slaves or crises on account of slaves. He may also reduce the native to slavery. Great illnesses are indicated and serious afflictions, especially if the Moon is in any aspect and no benefic planet is on any angle" (Firmicus) and so on...

Worse if they are against their hairesis, Saturn in the angle in the night and Mars in the day.

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Mark
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To be honest the idea to elect something putting Saturn and Mars in the 12th or 6th house makes me shiver.


Yes but where IS a good house to elect a malefic?

My answer is simple. Somebody elses! Very Happy

Seriously though, there are statements like this about the malefics throughout the houses in texts. Moreover, I already stated planetary joys are a minor consideration. Its true the sixth house is a pretty dire place. I would prefer a natal Mars that was essentially dignified and in positive aspect to a benefic. That kind of Mars would be very useful in an angular house. Especially if in sect.

Surely it all depends on context and what Mars rules in a chart? Say you were electing for a job application and Mars ruled the 7th house? I would be happy to see it tucked away in a cadent house. On the other hand if Mars ruled the 1st or 10th house you would not want it in a cadent house would you?

Incidentally, the quote from Rhetorius you gave actually supports the idea that an angular Mars is not to be desired. There are many others in the tradition such as Bonatti's considerations before judgement. This idea is therefore supported in horary astrology. However, its a general statement. As you know each chart is unique and has to be assessed on its own merits. I also think the interpretations dont need to be as rigid for natal charts.

Mark

Ps For non-traditionalists or Latinists the term hairesis= planetary sect
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~Kent~



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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would prefer a natal Mars that was essentially dignified and in positive aspect to a benefic. That kind of Mars would be very useful in an angular house. Especially if in sect.


I agree with this and had glossed over your prior statement that joy's were a relatively minor consideration. Beyond this I would also prefer Mars in aspect to its sign ruler and so recieved. e.g., Mars in Gemini trine Mercury.
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yuzuru



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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Worse if they are against their hairesis, Saturn in the angle in the night and Mars in the day.


Hi, Marguerita.

Using a real example, Bill Clinton has a angular mars in a diurnal chart. Besides that mars is in detriment. He seems to have a very accomplished life, besides some sexual scandal and a heart surgery. What would you suggest that mars would have affected him?
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at relevent natal examples to the thread title (Mars in the 6th) the Scottish actor Sean Connery seems worth looking at.

Data: August 25, 1930, 6:05 PM
in: Edinburgh, Scotland
Sun: 1°45' Virgo
Moon: 23°53' Virgo
Ascendant: 6°07' Capricorn

Mars is in the 6th house (quadrant and whole sign). Mars was domicile ruler of the 4th and 10th (11th whole sign) houses and the exaltation ruler of the ascendant. Mars is out of sect and in an out of sign opposition to Saturn.
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~Kent~



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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confusing to me are two lives I think exhibit significant Martial activity: Napoleon and Churchill.
Both of them have Mars which are essentially debilitated yet both of them have angular Mars (10th and 1st respectively).
Churchill’s Mars is detriment in Libra, even worse than Napoleon yet he single-handedly stood in the way of Hitler’s conquest in the early days of the war and ultimately brought about the coalition (Libra?) which defeated Germany. But Churchill has Mars recieved by Saturn since it is in the sign of exaltation of Saturn and trine Saturn, suggesting great determination or what the Chinese call perseverance in the I Ching.
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But Churchill has Mars recieved by Saturn since it is in the sign of exaltation of Saturn and trine Saturn, suggesting great determination or what the Chinese call perseverance in the I Ching.


Churchill has a very interesting nativity. A good illustration of the power of fixed stars in a person's destiny. Moon on Regulus, Jupiter on Spica and Sun on Antares. The proximity of Churchill's Sun to the martial royal fixed star Antares ( 'Heart of the Scorpion') seems relevant here.
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