skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Solar Returns
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JulieYvonne



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 42

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:22 am    Post subject: Solar Returns Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by JulieYvonne on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:33 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi JulieYvonne,

Haven't read the book but now I want to because I checked 5 very difficult years crying and every one of those solar returns had one of the troublemaking placements. Shocked

Not exactly a Gauquelin quality study but quite striking in an early stage kind of way.

Tara
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Haven't read the book but now I want to because I checked 5 very difficult years and every one of those solar returns had one of the troublemaking placements


Check also 5 good years and you will probably found that it doesn´t make a lot of sense... too many factors.

According strictly to the criteria above, I would have every 5 years out of 6 as a awful year.
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com


Last edited by yuzuru on Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The book is remarkable in my view because Discepelo states unequivically that having a solar return year which places the natal mars, or the sun, or the ascendent into the 1st, 6th, or 12th house of the solar return portends a year of extreme trouble and trauma.


The probability of this happening in a given year is quite high.

One of the three planetary placements (Mars, Sun, or ASC) alone has a 25% probability of falling into those three houses (1st, 6th or 12th house = 3/12), and then multiply that probability by three. In other words, I think it's about a 75% chance. So everyone has a 25% chance of not having a crummy year? I know some people who seem to never have a crummy year whereas others have one almost every year (as you might expect in some natal birth charts vs. others).

Perhaps in addition to other difficult placements.

Quote:
Haven't read the book but now I want to because I checked 5 very difficult years and every one of those solar returns had one of the troublemaking placements.


I'd expect that you had some good years where this was the case too though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuzuru - I see you were of the same thought process. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JulieYvonne



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 42

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by JulieYvonne on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1364
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar Returns Reply with quote

JulieYvonne wrote:


In any event, since I have been viewing a thread on precessed solar returns for a long spell, I wanted to ask if anyone here has read the (non-precessed) solar return book by Ciro Discepelo, translated from the Italian.

The book is remarkable in my view because Discepelo states unequivically that having a solar return year which places the natal mars, or the sun, or the ascendent into the 1st, 6th, or 12th house of the solar return portends a year of extreme trouble and trauma.


Ciro Discepolo is well known in Italy, because in practice is only subject is the solar return, in particular what he calls "aimed solar return" (his English), i.e. a solar return travel.

He advises his clients to travel in the most impossible places of the world- for example Russia before the Berlin Wall fall (true example) for the moment of the exact solar return, with the goal of moving planets from an house to another.

No other astrologer in Italy can mention solar return (even not "aimed" ones) or organizing a lecture on it without provoking Discepolo wrath.

About his sources he mentions his 30 years of work with them; in practice from what I understood it's just the modern version of Renaissance texts. He has obviously a French background, Morin and between moderns Volguine- who incidentally translated and published in French Francesco Giuntini part of Speculum Astrologiae under the French name of "Traitè des Revolutions Solaires" published in 1960 by Cahiers Astrologiques.

It's a mix of traditional aphorisms (sources never mentioned) with modern stuff like the "aimed" return.

Anyway he has a blog where he writes in English too....

http://cirodiscepolo.blogspot.com/

but the funniest things are in Italian, obviously, Smile


About the solar returns I just would say that solar returns in the past were always combined with many other techniques.

The same Morin- Tom? - recommends to use them with directions. So I believe that aphorisms Discepolo uses are effective, yes, but looking just at the solar return is not the complete traditional method.

On the other hand why for a traditional astrologer the 1st, the 6th and the 12th are dangerous for health being obviously the first house the body, and the 6th and the 12th as much as obvious.

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JulieYvonne



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 42

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by JulieYvonne on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The same Morin- Tom? - recommends to use them with directions. So I believe that aphorisms Discepolo uses are effective, yes, but looking just at the solar return is not the complete traditional method.


The original question wasn´t asked from a traditional perspective, but the point that Marguerita is trying to make is important. Originally, Solar returns were used combined with several techniques, because, let´s face it, when one sees a SR without any frame of reference, one can say whatever they want. That is why using SR with hindsight is usually a dangerous approach.

I find that SR are particularly useful when combined with profections and firdaria, and I would invite anyone with interested in traditional astrology to try this approach.

Quote:
I'm no mathematician but I don't believe it's this straightforward probability wise. People with natal ASC of long ascension will have more solar return years with a natal ascendent, for instance. Long or short ascension also affect the solar return sun placement cycle.


Not exactly, because Tanit is not analysing any particular sign or configuration. It will affect any given solar return sun placement, but on average, it will not affect the probability distribution.

What will do affect the distribution are the lack of independence of the factors analysed. For instance, the position of mars is not independent of the sun. But the spirit here was of giving a rough estimate, not a statistical calculation.

Quote:
n other words, I think it's about a 75% chance. So everyone has a 25% chance of not having a crummy year?


Again, not exactly. Razz Even as a guesstimate, is more correct to say that the chance of NOT having a crummy year would be of (1 - 0.25)^3, which is 0.75x0.75x0.75 = 0.422 = 42%
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1364
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JulieYvonne wrote:

I know his demonizing of the 12th and 6th house is traditional, but I was surprised at the first house being included. Also, he insists that the 8th is not to be feared nearly as much as these


From a traditional point of view is an obvious point, because we know that according Ptolemy the body is ruled by the Moon and the Ascendant.

For example from Giuntini, the chapter is "Health and illness":

5- The return Ascendant ruler well disposed and in its domicile the native will have good health. But if in the Ascendant he will be strong in the body.

And on the other hand

When the radix or the return Moon is damaged and it is in the place of radix Mars or Saturn, in the return 1st, 6th, and the 12th, foretells an unfavorable disease in the year.

The problem with Discepolo is he does not mention traditional background so it makes no sense for modern astrologers where he puts himself.

I agree with Yuzuru and warmly recommend Giuntini book, which explains how combining chronocrators, firdaria, profections and solar returns. Between the rest for the part of profections Giuntini takes from Vettius Valens, while for solar returns he takes from Albumasar book on revolution of the years.

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JulieYvonne



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 42

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by JulieYvonne on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:36 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3464
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
About the solar returns I just would say that solar returns in the past were always combined with many other techniques.

The same Morin- Tom? - recommends to use them with directions. So I believe that aphorisms Discepolo uses are effective, yes, but looking just at the solar return is not the complete traditional method.


Just caught this.

Morin specifically, but he is not the only one uses solar returns with other methods. I'll mention what I've learned from him, but keep in mind that he is not the only one who ever said these things.

The natal chart is obviously necessary. The solar return without the natal chart is just a transit chart. We can't argue simultaneously that the nativity is the source of everything in the life and then say, "But we don't need it when we look at the solar return." That's senseless. Sure a planet can rule one thing in the nativity and another in the return, but what it rules in the nativity is affected by what it rules in the return. It does not stand alone.

Morin, like most traditional authors agreed with the primacy of primary directions. When a direction perfected and agreed with things in the solar return, that was strong evidence that the astrologer's prediction would be correct and the event would be very important. The idea is that the cosmic gears need to mesh.

Contemporary astrolgoers can use secondary progressions where Morin and others used primary directions. Morin also used the expression "under the influence of [a particular direction]." To me this means he allowed some leeway and did not just use perfection as the key. If a direction to the MC is close several solar returns should be cast to look for the similarities.

The very best example of how all this works is Morin's treatment of the chart and death (hey this is traditional astrology. We have an obligation to kill off our subjects) of Gustav Adolphus, the King of Sweden. In that example absolutely everything from the nativity to direction to the solar and lunar returns to the transits on the day of his death fit absolutely perfectly. You will live to be 1000 years old and do millions of charts and you will never see anything work as well as this example. But it is a valuable tool to learn the ideas behind the techniques.

Tony Louis' book on Solar Returns is a good overview of various techniques, traditional and modern, including, but not limited to Morin.

Aphorisms:

Aphorisms, the good ones are valuable tools. Many of them, by the best astrolgoers, contain wonderful gems of wisdom. But it must be kept in mind there is an "all other things being equal" warning that is unspoken. All other things are rarely equal. This does not diminish their usefulness, but rather it puts them into perspective.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JulieYvonne



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 42

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by JulieYvonne on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:38 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3464
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Transits must refer to something in order to be transits.


We can and we do make such references, but we don't make them exclusively that way. For example "Transiting Venus is currently at 7 Scorpio" is a valid and correct statement and it doesn't require a reference to another chart to be understood.


Quote:
The solar return without the natal is a natal chart


A natal chart requires a birth. An electional chart requires an event and so on.

Solar returns are cast for a particular time and place and for a particular reason. With reference to a nativity it is not a transit chart. It's a solar return. Without reference to a natal chart it's just a map of the sky that could apply to anyone born the same day in that location.

Astronomers have a different definition of transits than astrologers do, and that definition requires a reference but it a reference to another planet's position at the time of the "transit.".


Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dolly



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 152

Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: One for Tom Reply with quote

Hi Tom

In 2006 I posted details of a solar chart concerning my 6th house (Scorpio) of natal coming to the ascendant of solar return and in that year I fell of a step ladder and broke my left arm. In the solar chart Jupiter was in the ascendant which rules my 7th and 10th houses and you said I would make a good recovery - which I did.

This year we have the 6th again arriving at the ascendant of solar return but this time the planet ruling ascendant (Mars) is in 10th in Leo - its dispositor the Sun is in the 8th in Gemini and Mercury its ruler is in 7th in Taurus. Venus the dispositor is in 9th in Cancer.

My 6th house in solar is Aries ruled by Mars - so it rules ascendant and 6th and is in 10th its opposite Neptune and trine Pluto and makes minor aspects to Jupiter,Saturn and Uranus and is sextile to ascendant - to me it does not seem as traumatic as 2006 but am still a bit concerned can anyone shed light for me.

Mars is also at an Anarertic degree 29 degrees 11 minutes Leo - I have read this as mulling over things and then taking a contrary route - but how this equates to illness I am not sure. Jupiter also is at 29 degrees 55 minutes but I can't find any literature on it in all my books. My birth details are 6th June 1950, 5:10 am, Oxford UK - sorry if this seems a bit muddled but am trying to learn solar returns.


Dolly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated