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Birthday trips - from the outrageous to the irresponsible
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Do you support the logic of birthday trips for solar returns?
No way!
78%
 78% 
Yes I do!
18%
 18% 
Not sure
3%
 3% 

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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Birthday trips - from the outrageous to the irresponsible Reply with quote

There’s a controversial little feature in the current NCGR newsletter, where Bob Marks complains about an article called "The Ingress," by New York astrologer Lawrence Grecco (*the article will shortly appear at www.astrologynyc.org ).

Grecco is quoted as saying in the article:
Quote:
I don't believe for a second that traveling on one's birthday and then returning to one's home city for the remainder of the year can have any real impact or drastically change the events that are likely to happen over the following twelve months.

Bob Marks argues that Grecco is unable to provide evidence to support his opinion, adding that he has himself been sending clients on birthday trips for the last 29 years, and that they have come back with stories of how events in their lives have drastically changed. He mentions that this is also the practice of other reputable astrologers such as Jeff Geist and Ray Merriman.

But Bob Marks really takes exception to what Grecco says next, where Grecco adds his opinion “"I do believe that offering someone such false hope is both irresponsible and unethical."

Bob Marks complains that for Grecco to suggest such a thing is both “outrageous and unprofessional”.

So, one reports claims it is “both irresponsible and unethical” to send people on solar return birthday trips; whilst another publicly proposes that it is “completely outrageous and unprofessional” to suggest that it is “both irresponsible and unethical”.

It's all so interesting … I do hope someone uses the word 'preposterous' soon!

(To sign up for the free NCGR newsletter, go here:
http://www.geocosmic.org/publications/enews.shtml ).


Last edited by Deb on Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all so interesting … I do hope someone uses the word 'preposterous' soon!

Which is preposterous? The argument or the birthday trips, or both? Leery
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Deb
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well look, I'm no expert and can offer no statistics (and think this would be difficult to test anyway because satisfactory evidence would probably require the client to live out two alternate realities simultaneoulsy, to see which proved to be the best) but I personally think the idea of travelling elsewhere for no other reason but to change the year's potential is a bit daft.

Surely the astrological cycles demonstrate an unfoldment of something which has been in development from past actions and past choices? So I tend to think that it will 'out' one way or another, and that the cosmos is intelligent enough not to be foiled by our manipulations. Hence, though I teach electional astrology I also explain that we're not able to elect a good time for a bad wedding (something always gets in the way somehow), and the idea of fleeing to a place with a better transit for a day is like the story of meeting death in the market place.

But I'm bemused because I know this issue has been discussed in this forum a few times, with far more forthright opinions expressed, but no one thought it was outrageous or unprofessional for others to voice their opinions. Confused
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with daft. I like using the location of the native where he or she was at the time of the return when it is unplanned. I think that means something, but to pack your bags and run off to wait seems a bit over the top.

I have looked at where I might benefit most from a solar return, but more often than not its in the middle of the Pacific Ocean or some more remote place. In February, most remote places are no fun.


Quote:
but no one thought it was outrageous or unprofessional for others to voice their opinions

Welcome to American astrology. Leery


Last edited by Tom on Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting to analyse the information of the used arguments. Even though you mention a fraction of it, Deb, I can find four main arguments (mainly sophisms) which are used very often in discussions:

1- 'personal' experience, "...my experience that this or that occurred to my clients."
2- duration of career (29 yrs), authority argument. This is what I would call the 'I-was-sherrif-of-this-backwater-town-already-when-you-were-pooing-your-dipers-argument'.
3- call in the authority of others argument. Name respected astrologers who applied the same technique.
4- shouting and big words, if you continuously hammer on people saying that what they do is nonsense, even if you don't found it well, then they will give up. I remember a discussion a few years ago in which my 'opponent' did this, very tiring.

The whole argument is in fact a mini spectrum in the greater spectrum from full believers and non believers with on the one side the determinists who would say that it was determined at birth that the client would meet an astrologer who would advise the birthday travel and the skeptics on the other side who would dismiss it at once.

By the way, I don't recall far travels that didn't affect my life, birthday or no birthday, but that is my 'personal' experience Tongue Out .
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Deb
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Eddy - yes, it is a mini spectrum, and yes, it is good to travel, and also, it's good to have a day out on your birthday (but if the client has the time and can afford it, we should make sure the place has a beach and tell them to go for at least a week). Cool
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'll stick to the preposterously daft idea of making a wish when I cut my cake.

What's really preposterous is waiting for your birthday to have a large cake.

I may not like what you're saying but I'll defend to the death the right to eat your own home-baked cake.

Now, go on, admit it.... you've all made/had made a birthday cake out of your chart (natal/solar/both/whatever) haven't you? Wink
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to be a wet blanket folks as this looks a fun discussion but what has this all to do with mundane astrology? Relocating for a SR sounds natal/predictive to me.

Mark
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree Mark, this is the wrong section.

We need a new section marked 'Preposterousness'.

(Notwithstanding the standard critics' claim that astrology is itself preposterous.)

The reason this is in the wrong section is that it's about relocating to have a more auspicious future, and this thread should be relocated to have a more auspicious future, thus demonstrating the method.

Happy birthday!
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Deb
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've relocated the thread - let's see if it gets better prospects over here Smile
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Birthday trips - from the outrageous to the irresponsibl Reply with quote

Hello Deborah and all,

here in Italy as I told in a previous thread this controversy is a very old one, between Ciro Discepolo and quite the rest of the astrological community.
It's a blood massacre Smile

For me, I never relocate solar return- I always use the city of birth.

margherita
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disregarding the main question (if the solar return may or may not be recolocated - that we already have discussed several times), I see the problem expressed in the quote pretty much as a marketing-ethics problem.

It is very interesting for an astrologer to promise that, not only you can see the future, but that you have the power to completely change the year of the client. A very powerful ju-ju indeed.

You will have an horrible year, but if you follow my instructions it will be all right. Of course you will have to consult with me every year.

It seems a little like when one goes for a tarot consultation for $20 and discover that one is "cursed" but the curse can be removed for as little as $1000. Of course clients will be delighted "my astrologer said that if I went to vacations in Cabo, I wouldn´t get fired, and I didn´t!"
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear. One of those issues that make me very sour.

Deb wrote:

Quote:
. . . this would be difficult to test anyway because satisfactory evidence would probably require the client to live out two alternate realities simultaneoulsy, to see which proved to be the best . . .


This is the important point that so many people don't seem to want to acknowledge. If the chart native had such a good year after traveling for the return how can they be sure they wouldn't have had an equally good year if they had stayed home? To many of us the questionable nature of it is obvious enough, but some folks just blissfully ignore having to think about it. Return traveling appeals to the vanity of the astrologer who considers himself or herself smart and authoritative enough to figure out where the person should go (for a fee) and it grants a sense of empowerment to the chart native who feels sufficiently clever to have outwitted and redirected the future, fate, destiny, or whatever that big question mark lurking down the road is. This idea of off-to-Disneyland is one of those things that serves to help me remove names from the list of astrologers I will pay attention to. Once I hear an astrologer uses this method I hit the gong hard and seldom take anything else he or she says seriously. I think it's one of the must egregious errors of judgment and reasoning and shows a certain . . . . . . . . . . immaturity of thought (I did say it makes me sour). It's too strongly infused with rosy ideas of personal empowerment for me to take it – or the proponent – seriously.

I start with the birth location with its inherent pattern of angular signs in the return charts. I do take a look at the current place of residence which is activated and validated through the possessions, daily routines, and concerns of the native. But the current residence chart breaks up the natural flow of the angular signs of the return charts so it needs to be used secondarily following the birth location.

Why, just my humble opinions, of course. Embarassed
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if the nativity indicated perils on on foreign jouneys? If then the solar return indicated the same themes then surely it would be irresponsible for the astrologer to advise.....&c&c ad nauseam you can foresee where this is going

Matt
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

matt23z wrote:
.....&c&c ad nauseam you can foresee where this is going
Matt


If it's going somewhere near cake ad nauseam, count me in.
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