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Significance of "other" factors in a horary
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:32 am    Post subject: Significance of "other" factors in a horary Reply with quote

There's a big 3-day camping party about to happen and I had planned to go with a girlfriend. I really wanted to go on this trip, and I wasn't sure it was going to work out at the time, so I asked the question:

"Will I go to the party with my friend?"
August 18 2004, 5:29 AM, 40N53 73W58
17 deg 02 minutes Leo ascendant

Well, I'm the Sun, she's Mercury (11th) and the party is Jupiter(5th). As it turns out, the Moon was void of course, but the moon is translating from a parallel with Jupiter to Mercury. The end result is that although I'm not going with her, I am going to meet up with her over there, so the horary is accurate in that respect.

But there are many other factors involved that I would also like to know about. (1) Will I have fun (2) Will I run into my ex (I think he's supposed to be there) (3) Will he die when he sees me Lala Happy

While my question deals directly with my friend, these background factors were very much on my mind when I asked the question.

Can a horary indicate these background factors? I think it could.

In particular, I was also curious about Venus in the 11th and the highly detrimented Saturn (my ex????) in the 12th.

Any comments, anyone?
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Significance of "other" factors in a horary Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, I'm the Sun, she's Mercury (11th) and the party is Jupiter(5th). As it turns out, the Moon was void of course, but the moon is translating from a parallel with Jupiter to Mercury. The end result is that although I'm not going with her, I am going to meet up with her over there, so the horary is accurate in that respect.


Hi T,
yes I think the Moon's translation by parallel pretty much answers your question in full.

Quote:
But there are many other factors involved that I would also like to know about. (1) Will I have fun (2) Will I run into my ex (I think he's supposed to be there) (3) Will he die when he sees me Lala Happy


Ok, I'll try to make sense of these factors Razz

1)If you're going to spend 3 days at a festival with friends and you don't know if you'll have fun or not, then I wonder why you're going..

2 & 3) This horary is about whether you'll be going there with your friend or not, and it answered that question very well. In my opinion, its mandate stops there. If you want to discover whether you'll run into your ex at the festival, why not just ask another horary about that? I think we make a mistake when we try to glean more and more information from a horary when the question has been answered. We should treat our horaries with respect, and one question one chart should be the rule -- *unless the two questions are intimately linked together*, as in "Where is my purse, and will I recover all the money in it?"

Clearly, questions 2 and 3 are not dependent on, or connected to your primary question. Therefore I wouldn't attempt to answer them from this horary, but I would encourage you to ask another question if the matter was really playing on your mind...

Quote:
In particular, I was also curious about Venus in the 11th and the highly detrimented Saturn (my ex????) in the 12th.


Venus in the 11th might well be a descriptive factor with respect to your friend, who - as you say - is female.
Saturn doesn't have rulership over any house that holds relevance to your question, so I'd ignore it.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Significance of "other" factors in a horary Reply with quote

Pete,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question.

Quote:
But there are many other factors involved that I would also like to know about. (1) Will I have fun (2) Will I run into my ex (I think he's supposed to be there) (3) Will he die when he sees me Lala Happy


Quote:
Ok, I'll try to make sense of these factors Razz

1)If you're going to spend 3 days at a festival with friends and you don't know if you'll have fun or not, then I wonder why you're going..

=== ok, you've got a good point there... sorry!!! Smile


Quote:
2 & 3) This horary is about whether you'll be going there with your friend or not, and it answered that question very well. In my opinion, its mandate stops there. If you want to discover whether you'll run into your ex at the festival, why not just ask another horary about that? I think we make a mistake when we try to glean more and more information from a horary when the question has been answered. We should treat our horaries with respect, and one question one chart should be the rule -- *unless the two questions are intimately linked together*, as in "Where is my purse, and will I recover all the money in it?"

Clearly, questions 2 and 3 are not dependent on, or connected to your primary question. Therefore I wouldn't attempt to answer them from this horary, but I would encourage you to ask another question if the matter was really playing on your mind...


In the post titled "When we think we've got a judgement wrong" (which, in fact, you posted), Deb says
"One of the reasons I don't think we have to take the literal wording of the question too seriously is because of the constraints it puts on the ability to read the chart effectively (that is when we expect astrology to answer our questions exactly as we put them, rather than opening ourselves up to what the chart has to say in wider context first, and then forming a judgement on that, and then through that - hopefully - the question itself and everything that pertains to it."

I hope I am not taking her statement out of context here. But going back to my horary, while the question was about my friend, the presence or lack there-of of my ex at the festival, and the scenario that may follow if an encounter does take place, I believe, is definitely a factor that should show up in this chart. Would you wish to reconsider the location of Saturn in the context of what I have just said????

Taurus7
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good goddess and the grey beard! Laughing why wouldn't you go to something just because you wondered whether or not it would be fun? I could argue that I may or may not have fun at any event you could think of, I'd never make a decision to go based on that! sheesh, how many weddings have I gone to and I really dont like modern weddings at all, I can't imagine why anyone would make the same vows as everyone else, (I've always thought it the basis of divorce) yet I go to them because a family member or friend wanted me too, I've gone to camping events fully expecting to enjoy myself and gotten flooded out, or fired out, etc... Having fun is not the center of life. it is a point of view and a choice for the most part.

the question is not will I have fun, but will I go, and there are many reasons to go it seems to me. Clearing the air for one, seeing old situations from new eyes, finding out why your ex is in the 12th house and dibilitated would be a curious enough reason to get me there. I am overly curious I must admit. with the 11th house placement I should think you will find joy enough in your weekend? At least it bodes well for your frame of mind.

Of course you hit pretty close to home with this question, I myself am going camping in San Diego with intersting soon to be ex questions... sigh... should be fun! Wink I believe that horary is posted not to far down on this same page... Leery Granny
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Significance of "other" factors in a horary Reply with quote

Quote:
Pete,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question.


Always a pleasure Smile


In the post titled "When we think we've got a judgement wrong" (which, in fact, you posted), Deb says
"One of the reasons I don't think we have to take the literal wording of the question too seriously is because of the constraints it puts on the ability to read the chart effectively (that is when we expect astrology to answer our questions exactly as we put them, rather than opening ourselves up to what the chart has to say in wider context first, and then forming a judgement on that, and then through that - hopefully - the question itself and everything that pertains to it."

In respect to Deb's comment from the other thread you mention, I agree that we should always look at the wider context of the horary where it seems necessary before we home in on the narrower focus of the question itself, but the word "context" is the key here. Your question concerned your girlfriend, and whether or not you would go with her to the festival, so my eye would immediately go to the 11th house, the sign on the cusp and the placement and condition of the ruler. This would describe your friend, in context.
Here Gemini is on cusp 11 and Mercury is in a nice mixed reception with the Moon ( trip and dignity ), describing the strong bond between you. Gemini is a double-bodied sign which suggests that your friend may not be alone when you meet her. Mercury is retrograde and about to oppose Uranus and conjoin Mars, which seems to be saying that she may be returning to a situation which will overturn the status quo in her life in a somewhat upsetting fashion. Uranus is close to the turned 10th cusp, so this may be connected to a job, or a family situation. ( Mars on turned 4th)

There's no reason for me to suspect that your curiosity about your ex would be a factor in this question, and even if there were I still think you would get a much clearer answer if you asked a separate horary about him,, rather than looking for 'other factors' in this horary.

Quote:
I hope I am not taking her statement out of context here. But going back to my horary, while the question was about my friend, the presence or lack there-of of my ex at the festival, and the scenario that may follow if an encounter does take place, I believe, is definitely a factor that should show up in this chart. Would you wish to reconsider the location of Saturn in the context of what I have just said????


Not really; I stand by what I said above, but given that this seems to be such an important issue then I'll just say that Saturn's placement in its detriment, completely out-of-sect and in the 12th house describes him as being in very bad shape. He is in his own 6th house, so his health is bad. He is out of dignity and your primary sig, the Sun, receives him into his detriment.

All in all I'd say just enjoy the festival Smile
--
Pete
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny Skot,

Quote:
the question is not will I have fun, but will I go, and there are many reasons to go it seems to me.

you know, i think you understand exactly where i'm coming from, because yes, i read your post and i know you're also going camping labor day weekend...Sir Pete, on the other hand ........ well, I'll respond to him in just a minute.... Wink

Quote:
finding out why your ex is in the 12th house and dibilitated would be a curious enough reason to get me there.

well, i think it's the answer to one of the questions i listed in my original post... i.e. will he die when he sees me....
well, i think the answer is YES!!! Very Happy
because i (the sun) am strong, in my own sign, comfortable, in the first house, and personally feeling just great! and look at him, a complete mess!!!
yes, yes, yes, he's going to die when he sees me...
this is great..... Lala Happy
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Significance of "other" factors in a horary Reply with quote

Pete, Sir,

Quote:
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question.

Always a pleasure Smile


No, please, the pleasure is all mine, truly. It's very kind of you to take the time to analyze whether or not my ex will die or not. Very Happy


Quote:
In respect to Deb's comment from the other thread you mention, I agree that we should always look at the wider context of the horary where it seems necessary before we home in on the narrower focus of the question itself, but the word "context" is the key here.

I agree with you, hundred percent. Who am I to question your wisdom in this, really, Sir.....

Quote:
Your question concerned your girlfriend, and whether or not you would go with her to the festival, so my eye would immediately go to the 11th house, the sign on the cusp and the placement and condition of the ruler. This would describe your friend, in context.

OK. Certainly. You are right. Indeed.

Quote:
There's no reason for me to suspect that your curiosity about your ex would be a factor in this question, and even if there were I still think you would get a much clearer answer if you asked a separate horary about him,, rather than looking for 'other factors' in this horary.

You're probably right. But you know what, I guess he just doesn't matter that much anymore because I don't feel inclined to ask a question about him at all. Maybe at the time I did the festival horary, it meant more. At this time, I just couldn't be bothered. Which is why I am trying to glean the information from the original festival horary in this post.

Quote:
Would you wish to reconsider the location of Saturn in the context of what I have just said????


Quote:
Not really; I stand by what I said above, but given that this seems to be such an important issue then I'll just say that Saturn's placement in its detriment, completely out-of-sect and in the 12th house describes him as being in very bad shape. He is in his own 6th house, so his health is bad.

Actually, you just answered question number 2 in my original post. "2) Is he going to die when he sees me?". And I think the answer is "Yes". Aww, poor poor baby.... my heart weeps for him..... crying

Quote:
He is out of dignity and your primary sig, the Sun, receives him into his detriment.


If you don't mind my asking just one more question about this - of course, only if you would be kind enough to spare a little time out to explain your wisdom to us novices at the forum - Sir - Very Happy
(OK, OK, I'll stop the sweet talk now.....sorry - got carried away again --- Laughing )

------ when you say I receive him into his detriment, does that mean he gets "detrimented" *because* of me? and could this be because he's going to see me doing so great while he's doing so crappy and this will kill his ego because i'm not crying for him anymore? (you know what they say - being happy is the best revenge!!! Leery )

Quote:
All in all I'd say just enjoy the festival Smile


Thank you, I appreciate your good wishes. I know I've been kidding around with you a bit lately, but I'm sure you're taking it all in good humor....it's just that my venus sextile uranus has been acting up a lot Cool .....
I have a lot of respect for what you know, really... Smile

Now let me go back to the novile post!!
<grinning...>
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HoraryQueen



Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 104

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

First a confession - I didn't read all the postings on this thread in their entirety. Nor did I even look at the chart.

That said, I have to say that when I first thought about learning Horary, my impression was that it would give a very straightforward, simplistic 'yes/no' type answer to a specific question, with absolutely no 'psychology' and no real depth of meaning.

Since studying it I feel I'm starting to 'get the hang of it' although I'm sure I have a long way to go to be a 'proper' Queen of this Art (like some of you guys are). Now I'm starting to find the thing that continually impresses, astounds, amazes, enthralls and excites me, and presumably some of my querents, is the HUGE psychological insight given. As we sit there we see the whole psychological blueprint of the querent and other relevant parties with respect to all issues which contribute to the urge to ask the question, gradually unravel.

So, yes, I am absolutely certain without a shadow of a doubt that your ex is in that chart. Oh, and if he doesn't die then just make sure you kill him! Lala Happy
(that was a joke - I don't want sued!)

Have fun!
_________________
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Edinburgh.
www.horaryqueen.co.uk
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HoraryQueen wrote:
Hi,

So, yes, I am absolutely certain without a shadow of a doubt that your ex is in that chart. Oh, and if he doesn't die then just make sure you kill him! Lala Happy
(that was a joke - I don't want sued!)

Have fun!


If looks could kill - and the fact that I WON'T be giving him any - he's going to be a dead man for sure!!! Leery Lala Happy
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taurus7,

This thread seems to have gone from a supposedly simple question of whether or not you will have fun with your friend to an excuse to deride your former partner in a tone that Iím not really sure is appropriate for this forum. If the burning issue in your mind was the potential meeting with the ex, and it appears from your posts that it was, then why not ask that question in the first place? There are several factors involved in getting a chart that aligns with the cosmic influences of the time. One of them requires us to be honest with ourselves as to what the issue is that we really want answered. This isnít always easy as most of us are pretty good at deceiving ourselves at times. Iíve seen severalsituations where a question has been asked and it turns out that it is not the issue that is uppermost in the querentís mind but a side issue that is used to get to the heart of the matter concerned. One of the most important things is to really think about what it is we are asking the universe to give advice on and then ask about that. Doing it by a circuitous route is not going to give a clear and precise response.
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Significance of "other" factors in a horary Reply with quote

Quote:
No, please, the pleasure is all mine, truly. It's very kind of you to take the time to analyze whether or not my ex will die or not. Very Happy


Except of course I didn't do that Razz

Quote:
You're probably right. But you know what, I guess he just doesn't matter that much anymore because I don't feel inclined to ask a question about him at all. Maybe at the time I did the festival horary, it meant more. At this time, I just couldn't be bothered. Which is why I am trying to glean the information from the original festival horary in this post.


If he doesn't matter that much anymore then why do you need to know if he'll just DIE when he sees you? Hmmm?

Quote:
If you don't mind my asking just one more question about this - of course, only if you would be kind enough to spare a little time out to explain your wisdom to us novices at the forum - Sir - Very Happy
(OK, OK, I'll stop the sweet talk now.....sorry - got carried away again --- Laughing )


That's understandable. I make allowances Smile

Quote:
when you say I receive him into his detriment, does that mean he gets "detrimented" *because* of me? and could this be because he's going to see me doing so great while he's doing so crappy and this will kill his ego because i'm not crying for him anymore? (you know what they say - being happy is the best revenge!!! Leery )


It means basically that he will see that you no longer hold him in any esteem; that, in fact, you have nothing but contempt for him at one level

Quote:
Thank you, I appreciate your good wishes. I know I've been kidding around with you a bit lately, but I'm sure you're taking it all in good humor....it's just that my venus sextile uranus has been acting up a lot Cool .....
I have a lot of respect for what you know, really... Smile


I know that, Taurus, and thanks Smile

Quote:
Now let me go back to the novile post!!
<grinning...>


I can hardly wait Smile
--
Pete
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Sue"]Taurus7,

Quote:
This thread seems to have gone from a supposedly simple question of whether or not you will have fun with your friend to an excuse to deride your former partner in a tone that Iím not really sure is appropriate for this forum.


Sue,
I don't mean to deride him, really. I'm just having a little fun and I think most of the people who are reading my posts are smiling as well...

Quote:
If the burning issue in your mind was the potential meeting with the ex, and it appears from your posts that it was, then why not ask that question in the first place?

Honestly, the burning issue in my mind was not him, but whether or not I was going to get there with my friend, which the horary has answered accurately. Because, as I indicated in my prior post, I really don't feel the need to ask a horary about him specifically. He's there in the background, hence I was curious to know if the horary indicated as such.

But if my "fun" comments about him are being misconstrued in any way, or deviating from the purpose of this forum, then I sincerely apologize...

With best regards,
Smile
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:15 am    Post subject: Re: Significance of "other" factors in a horary Reply with quote

Pete,

Quote:
It's very kind of you to take the time to analyze whether or not my ex will die or not. Very Happy


Quote:
Except of course I didn't do that Razz


You are funny... but what you say is true, I know you didn't.. Very Happy

Quote:
If he doesn't matter that much anymore then why do you need to know if he'll just DIE when he sees you? Hmmm?

It's just a figure of speech......come on.......

Quote:
That's understandable. I make allowances Smile

I know. That's why I've been taking so many liberties... Very Happy

Quote:
when you say I receive him into his detriment, does that mean he gets "detrimented" *because* of me?


Quote:
It means basically that he will see that you no longer hold him in any esteem; that, in fact, you have nothing but contempt for him at one level

Wow! That's very cool......

Quote:
I have a lot of respect for what you know, really... Smile


Quote:
I know that, Taurus, and thanks Smile

I really appreciate your help in this, Pete. While I still think the general consensus is that the ex is "in there", but, I think, it is time.......

I concede...

Doesn't happen often, trust me!!! Wink

With best regards,
Taurus7 Very Happy
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

This thread seems to have gone from a supposedly simple question of whether or not you will have fun with your friend to an excuse to deride your former partner in a tone that Iím not really sure is appropriate for this forum.


Hi Sue,
I respect your position as a moderator I really do, in fact I'm a moderator on another forum so I know how difficult it can be at times to judge what's acceptable and what isn't. It isn't always easy!
Having said that, and while I acknowledge that T may be coming over as somewhat derisory with respect to her ex, I'm sure she meant no offence but was utilising the playful tone I've seen so often displayed by those with Venus in Gemini. My first wife had this position and she was very similar.
Actually, if we can see past the way T put this point across - and I can -then I think this has been quite an instructive thread. There have been many views expressed and food for thought offered, and this can only be valuable because the question of what ought and ought not be included in a judgement is an important one.
I've responded to many of T's posts in the past on this forum and I think we've developed a good understanding of each other's manner. I believe she was actually in part playing devil's advocate and this promoted others to bring in their views too.
She admits she's a novice and she's keen to learn. It's to her credit that she apologised for causing any offence, and I'm sure she meant it.

I enjoy her posts, they often cheer me up when I'm having a bad day Smile
I think the forum would be the poorer if she should change her style too much Smile
--
Pete
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Significance of "other" factors in a horary Reply with quote

Quote:
If he doesn't matter that much anymore then why do you need to know if he'll just DIE when he sees you? Hmmm?

It's just a figure of speech......come on.......


I know it is, but I'm sure you see the contradiction in what you said?

Quote:
I really appreciate your help in this, Pete. While I still think the general consensus is that the ex is "in there", but, I think, it is time.......

I concede...

Doesn't happen often, trust me!!! Wink


In that case it must be a big day for you. Shall I alert the media? Razz

Quote:
With best regards,


Best regards to you too, and like I suggested: just enjoy the festival with your friends Cool
--
Pete
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