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The Use of Dispositors in Judgment

 
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:39 pm    Post subject: The Use of Dispositors in Judgment Reply with quote

Hello members of the forum,

This is a subject matter that I think most horary students are interested in, but struggle with - I am curious what other members of the forum feel about using dispositors in their judgment. By dispositor, I mean domicile lord, if different than the planet in question (if the planet is not in its own domicile). Obviously a domicile lord is the planet that lords over the planet, and it’s always helpful that the dispositor has essential and accidental dignity so that the planet who is disposited is being attended to properly. A dispositor is akin to a landlord or host, and you don’t want your landlord/host to be a bad influence. We have talked about this a bit elsewhere, I believe. One thread that comes to mind was not in the horary forum:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5398

Deb also mentions them here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig6.html

Quote:
Consider the Sun in Libra. Venus is said to 'receive' the Sun because he is visiting her sign. In this capacity Venus is known as the Sun's dispositor. Traditional works frequently advise us to consider the strength of a planet's dispositor when evaluating its own condition because a dispositor's well being influences any planet in its sign.

Remembering that the ancients referred to the signs as 'houses', the influence of a dispositor can be likened to that of a property owner towards a residing visitor in his or her home. The owner's benevolence, well-being and disposition towards the guest reflects generally upon the comfort of his stay. It is always a bad indication to find a planet in a hostile relationship with its own dispositor, as it is to find the dispositor weak or badly afflicted.


If you know of any other useful sources, or perhaps charts with outcomes that show their importance in your view, please feel free to share. I am starting to use them more in my judgment.

Bonatti, in Anima Astrologiae has a section on election charts, but I would think this would relate to any chart, including horary:
Quote:

When the significators of journies are in watery signs and the Infortunes (or the Fortunes themselves unfriendly posited) be elevated above them, the querent will be much troubled in his journies with bad weather and tempests, and note that the causes or business of journies is to be discovered from the dispositors of the significators.


Sometimes the dispositor can be a source of trouble or an area that is influencing the querent (they are literally disposed of elsewhere).

Lilly, in his Christian Astrology, book II, holds some of the following quotes on the use of dispositors, but I particularly get confused in his disease section:

Quote:

Whether the Disease be in the Body, Minde or both.
You must understand in the first place, that the Signe ascending the Moon and the Lord of the house wherein the Sun is, doe shew the Spirit of Man, and that the Lord of the Ascendant, the Planet who is Dispositor of the Moon, doth denote both the external and internal Members. If those Planets who dispose of the Sun and Moon, or he that is Lord of the Ascendant, or two of them at least be afflicted, the Disease is in the Spirits together with some indisposition of minde. The reason hereof is, because the Lord of the Ascendant and Dispositor of the Moon are properly the Significators of the Animal faculties and infirmities in Man, or which may chance unto him.

… If the Ascendant and the Moon be both unfortunate, and the Lord of the Ascendant and Dispositor of the Moon free, the indisposition is in the Minde and not in the Body.

…If the Lord of the Ascendant and the Sun be in their exaltations, and the dispositor of the Moon in his detriment or fall, the Disease is in the Body, not the Minde. When the Lords of the places of the Moon and of the Sun be in their detriment, falls, or Peregrine, Retrograde, Combust, and the degree ascending in Square of the Moon; and free from ill aspects of Saturn and Mars, then is the Patient vexed with a tormented Soule.


So, this is all a bit subtle, since the body, mind and spirit are all 1st house matters/ASC ruler/luminaries. If I am understanding this correctly, he links the dispositor of the Moon (and Sun) and the ASC ruler together. There is a connection to the dispositor of the Moon with the ASC ruler, and this being the physical body (internal and external body)? Then there is the Moon (or perhaps both luminaries) and ASC of the quesited as the mind/spirit of the person?

However, he seems to contradict this later here:
Quote:
Dispositor of the Moon be infortunate in their fall, detriment or otherwayes very much afflicted, the Disease raignes more in the Minde than in the Body.

Astrological Aphorismes beneficial For Physicians.
The Ascendant and the Moon being afflicted, and the Lord of the one and Dispositor of the other not so, the Disease is in the Body, not in the Spirits.


So here he says the dispositor of the Moon is connected to the mind. Am I understanding the first quotes properly? Perhaps he links the mind and physical body together, separately from the spirit, meaning the dispositor of the Moon and the ASC ruler are the mind and body, the Moon and ASC are the spirit.

Ah… this is all giving me a headache! It’s like a riddle.

A few others:
Quote:
Cause Of The Disease Inward or Outward.
…if you find notwithstanding the strength of the Lord of the Ascendant, that either Saturn or Mars have some Square or Opposition aspect unto him, and neither of them be Lords of the 6th, or Dispositor of the Moon, you may judge some outward cause hath happened to the party, whereby it comes to passe he is not well, yet not perfectly sick; doe you then observe in what house that Planet is, or of what house he is Lord, and from the judgments belonging to that house, require satisfaction in Art.

Signs of a long or short Sicknesse.
If both the Luminaries be in Cadent houses, and the Planet or Planets that are their Dispositors be unfortunate, the Querent may expect a terrible Sicknesse

…and thus much more you must consider, that if there be translation of light (from that Planet who is Dispositor of the Moon, and he unfortunate) to the Lord of the Ascendant, or Signe Ascending, it gives great suspicion that the Querent will have a sharp sicknesse, according to the nature of the Signes and Planets signifying the infirmity.

How they shall agree after Marriage.
If the Figure perform Marriage, note if the Lord of the Ascendant and Lord of the 7th aspect each other with Trine or Sextile, they agree well: Moon beholding her Dispositor, or Lord of the Exaltation of the house wherein she is, with good aspect, idem.

If Rumors be True or False, According to the Ancients.
Consider the Lord of the Ascendant and the Moon, and see which of them is in an Angle, or if the Dispositor of the Moon be in an Angle, and a fixed Signe, or if any of these be in any succeedant house and fixed Signe, or in good aspect with the fortunate Planets, viz. in Sextile or Trine of Jupiter, Venus or Sun, you may then judge the Rumours are true and very good

A Report that Cambridge was Taken by the King’s Forces; if true?
…in regard the Moon who is Dispositor of Mars, is in Gemini, a Masculine Signe, and in Sextile platick with Jupiter, a Masculine Planet, Angular, and in a Masculine Signe and House, it’s an argument of the Demandant’s having a Brother or Brethern.

If the Querent shall obtaine the Treasure hid.
When Part of Fortune is in the Ascendant, and also his Lord or Dispositor, it promises acquisition of the Treasure: but if the Lord of Part of Fortune be cadent, and both the Lights, especially the Moon, and have no aspect to the Part of Fortune, or the Lord of the Ascendant behold not the Ascendant I can give the Querent then no hope of obtaining the Treasure or thing hid.

Whether She is With Child or Not.
The Dispositor of the Moon and the Lord of the houre in Angles…

Some say if the Question be, Whether a woman be with Child or not; consider the Lord of the Asc, Lord of the 5th, and Dispositor of the Moon, and the Moon herself; if any application be between these Planets, and the Moon be in a Common Signe, and the Ascendant one, and the Significators in Angles, or if in the Ascendant or 2nd there be a Fortunate Planet, she is with Child, otherwise not.
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Tanit



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Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert Hand also quotes Schoener about the body/soul dispositor indicators here:
http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0002107.HTM
Quote:
The Ascendant and the Moon are the significators of the body. The lord of the first house and the lord of the house of the Moon are the significators of the soul.

Wherefore, if the Ascendant and the Moon are impeded and their lords are free from the malefics, these signify an infirmity of the body but the health of the soul. And if the Ascendant and the Moon are free from the malefics and their lords are impeded, these signify the health of the body and the sadness of the soul.


I guess this would apply to natal as well, in a medieval approach anyway (which Robert Hand doesn't seem to entirely agree with).
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astroswift



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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what it all boils down to is actions and their motives. Dispositors show the nature of motive. The main significators of will(querent's will, quesited's will) show action, while their dispositors show motives for those actions.
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Olivia



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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bear in mind a couple of things: Medicine was practised along the lines of contracting for a cure back in the day. It helped doctors to be astrologers to see if the condition was curable by medical means instead of through prayer or some other form of spiritual intervention.

Did that play a part in determining whether the disease was of the body (medically curable) or of the soul (not medically curable but perhaps treatable by other methods?) It's slight, I grant you but not entirely semantics. As in, if it's physically curable it's of the body regardless of the cause, and if it's not physically curable it's not of the body. I'm not expressing myself very well, but if you dig up some old medical texts and histories, I think you'll find the distinction.

Also, any major illness of the body is going to take some toll on the spirit. I am in NO WAY endorsing lunatic fringe/new age theories that we think ourselves into cancer, genetic illness, what have you - just that if you get really sick, you're extremely unlikely to be really happy - which is obvious to most of us.
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Tanit



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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I probably shouldn't have brought up the disease section because it meanders into more complicated territory, although I found it to be the most interesting interpretation of dispositors I have seen, and I would think it could relate to things beyond illness.

Quote:
Also, any major illness of the body is going to take some toll on the spirit. I am in NO WAY endorsing lunatic fringe/new age theories that we think ourselves into cancer, genetic illness, what have you - just that if you get really sick, you're extremely unlikely to be really happy - which is obvious to most of us.


That's a good point: when you are physically ill you can become emotionally/mentally ill as well, or vice versa. BUT couldn't a horary indicate if you were both physically and emotionally/mentally ill vs. just one or the other? I would think it could be possible.

A distinction between ASC ruler/ruler of the Moon and Moon/ASC seems important, according to Lilly and others? For example, if the Moon is disposited by Mars ill-dignified, perhaps a person might be physically angry (showing an outward expression of anger), or are in some way under the influence of Mars ill-dignified on an external level. So, assuming the ASC ruler and/or lord of the Moon indicate the soul, if they are disposited by Mars, is this the same thing as the Moon being disposited by Mars? Maybe the Mars influence would not be manifested outwardly by the ASC ruler/lord of the Moon, but internalized more so than the Moon?

I can’t think of the quote offhand, but I know I have seen it mentioned that the Moon in opposition to the ASC ruler shows much inner strife over a matter for the querent, where they feel very undecided and conflicted. I often wondered why this was the case, but it makes sense if the Moon and ASC ruler are in fact the internal and external at odds.

And I didn't just mean to address this from the medical standpoint, but also in a sense of what astroswift brought up - motivation of the querent, meaning what might be influencing their actions or feelings about a matter. When you are disposited elsewhere, it can be a motivation for your behavior because you might look to that other planet on how to proceed (it is your lord, where there is a patron-master relationship). Dispositors can be accepting, allowing something to perfect, or sometimes forceful, I suppose, meaning they make something happen? Normally we think of the patron-master as the patron being the swifter applying to the slower, who is the dispositor, and the dispositor accepts the disposition of the swifter planet (the dispositor receives the planet that applies to it). But a dispositor might have an extra influence when it is committing its disposition onto the other planet (applying to and receiving it)? That would probably be a forceful, or pushing, influence.
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Olivia



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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit wrote:


That's a good point: when you are physically ill you can become emotionally/mentally ill as well, or vice versa. BUT couldn't a horary indicate if you were both physically and emotionally/mentally ill vs. just one or the other? I would think it could be possible.



I'm going to try to put this into historical context, because I think if we forget that, we're going to run right off the rails. So....

Of course a chart can, and could, indicate both physical and spiritual distress. You'd likely get the famous mixed testimonies - the Moon, and/or Sun and/or Ascendant afflicted, as well as having afflicted rulers. Chances are outstanding that you'd get mixed testimonies anyway, so you'd go with the stronger testimonies, just like we do now.

Illness is difficult - there's a role for the lights, ascendant, and their dispositors, but there's more to take into consideration besides that. Once again, bear in mind the definitions for physical and spiritual illness were very different at the time most of this material was written to what they are now. That needs to be taken into consideration. I also think it would be a mistake to equate a spiritual illness as defined in that time with psychological or emotional illness as we'd call it today. Bear with me here.

Point is, if I am - back in the day - an astrologer/physician, what I want to see in your chart before I take you as a patient is - can I cure your illness by medical means? If I believe I can, it's a physical illness (regardless of how it may be manifesting), we enter into a contract whereby I cure you, whatever the agreed-upon cure is - and if I fail, you don't pay me.

If I look at the chart and it looks like I can't cure you by medical methods, then your illness is probably spiritual, we do not create a contract for me to cure you, and I send you to the priest, cunning woman, or whoever it is that may be able to help you.

That may be one of the most practical uses for dispositors in illness charts back in the day. Not the only use, but at least one of the first I'd look at - is whatever is wrong with you within my bailiwick at all? If not, then there isn't a whole lot I can do for you.

But even within that system, it's quite possible that your upset stomach could be caused by spiritual difficulties, whilst your hallucinations may be a purely physical problem. The conditions of the lights, ascendant, and dispositors would show you if the physician could cure the disease, amongst other things. And if the physician could cure the disease, that's what made the disease physical, and not spiritual. It wasn't the manifestation itself of the disease that showed you whether it was physical or spiritual, it was the possibility of cure that put it into one category or the other.

I've been more interested myself recently in dispositors in a non-illness setting, as I've been working on a doozy of a business chart where much, much seems to hinge on truly awful dispositors.

It's still in the working-on stage, and if anyone wants to take a look at it, I'm happy to post it. But the outcome - who knows? The client is a regular, so I'll find out, but at this point we don't know the outcome.
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astroswift



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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that I often do with horaries is note whether there is a final dispositor in the chart. If you keep posted on planetary positions daily, this is made easier. What you do is make a dispositor chain, and I usually start with the Sun and work forwards(noting if there are any planets in Leo), and backwards(noting which planet is dispositing the Sun). Repeat until all of the planets are noted. Most often you will have two or more small chains, and one or more will circle back on themselves. A chain will always be either a circle, or will end in a planet that is in its own sign and a planet(s) that doesn't disposit anything. If there is a final dispositor, this will be a planet in its own sign along with (an)other planets that disposit all the others, directly or indirectly(through the chain). In other words, if you have one chain that includes all of the planets, that does not circle back on itself, and ends with exactly one planet that is in its own sign, then this planet is the final dispositor. Sometimes a mutual reception will be a final co-dispositorship. Sometimes you will have two or more small chains with final dispositors. There can be one final dispositor only if there is exactly one planet in its own sign, with at least one other planet in that sign(or the ruler's other sign)--this is a quick way to check if the chart can have an FD. If there are two or more planets in their own sign, there is no FD; if there are no planets in rulership, there is no truly FD.
The final dispositor(or A final dispositor, if there is more than one) can show the motive backing the whole operation. A planet in its own sign can direct the whole chart, motive-wise. Very interesting if this planet is in detriment by house. House positions no doubt add an interesting influence on this chain, but I digress. If there is no final dispositor, then a rulership chain can at least show the motive structure of the horary.
Immediately, you can see that this is something of a time-dynamic. If you keep up with the positions daily, you can keep a chain that shows the rulership structure, which changes every time a planet changes sign--and of course, the Moon changes sign about three times a week, which can change this structure dramatically. Or not much at all, depending on whether there are any planets in Cancer.
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cosmicdolphin



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Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raphael wrote in horary astrology book this ... page 106

"a planet disposes of any other which may be found in its essntial dignity , thus: if sun be in in aries , the house of mars, then mars disposes of sun, and is said to rule, receive or govern him. When the dispositor of the planet signifying the thing asked after is himself disposed of by the lord of the ascendant, it is a good sign. To dispose by house is the most powerful testimony, then by exaltation, then triplicity."

cheers all
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elumen



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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also use final dispositors frequently. I usually take them as an indicator of how things will turn out in the end. So if my quesited ruler is afflicted for e.g, but its dispositor is strong, I take it as a sign that things will turn out for the best in the end. In reverse, if the ruler is strong, but the dispositor is afflicated, I'd take it that in spite of the good start, things may turn to worse in the end. It is almost like the dispositor has the final say in the matter. Especially in the medical charts.
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Tanit



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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

I was re-reading Deb's article Where is It? (on missing items), and noticed that she states an argument against recovery is when the Moon/2nd ruler separates from its own dispositor. I am curious why this is? I searched Christian Astrology and saw this section here that is slightly similar (page 323 of CA, Book II, "For Beasts strayed, or Fugitives, or any thing lost"):

Quote:
[Strayed.] Moon within 30 degrees of the Lord of the Ascendant the thing is with the Loser, or neer him; Moon more then 30 degrees from the Lord of the Ascendant, it is farre off; the Dispositor of the Moon seperating from another Planet, it is strayed; another Planet seperating from the Dispositor of the Moon, it is stolen.



Does the separation between the Moon/2nd ruler and its dispositor mean that the object has strayed/been stolen (vs. application to the dispositor, which indicates finding it)?

It seems in general we'd like to see application to the dispositors of the Moon/ASC ruler or quesited, vs. separation (if we are seeking the thing, that is - sometimes we don't want perfection, of say an illness), right?
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astrojin



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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tanit,

There is a “corollary” in MashaAllah’s book on horary for cases when the querent and quesited are disposited by the same planet. It says that if the planet applies to its dispositor, then perfection is to be expected e.g. say a querent asked about a promotion; whether he will secure it. Say that Virgo is rising and the tenth cusp is in Gemini. Assuming we look only to first and tenth houses for promotion, Mercury rules both querent and promotion (assuming that no planets are in the respective houses). Say Mercury happens to be in Libra and is applying to Venus. We should think that the querent will get the promotion (ceteris paribus of course!). What if Mercury is in Gemini or Virgo (in its own domicile)? We would extrapolate that the outcome is the same.

It is a possibility that MashaAllah is thinking on a slightly different route than what we usually do. Perhaps his theory is that the significator of the querent (MashaAllah has a roundabout way of doing this as the significator of the querent is not automatically given to the domicile lord of the ascendant) should be located in the sign ruled by a planet that has relationship to the quesited. If this is true, an applying aspect between them signals a perfection. What if the significator of the querent is not in the sign ruled by a planet that has connection to the quesited? We then give priorities to the planet that rules the house of the quesited (like we usually automatically do) and not to the dispositor of the significator of the querent – unless one planet rules both querent and quesited as mentioned in the foregoing paragraph.

So, if lord of the second (significator of lost item) applies to its dispositor, it will be a positive indicator of recovery. Similarly, when moon applies to her dispositor, there is also “recovery” or return of fugitive as Moon is general significator of fugitive (I don’t think we should use Moon and significator for inanimate object but others may differ). If lord of the second or moon separates from their dispositors, it will be a negative indicator of recovery/return as the object/fugitive is moving away from its “proper place”.

And now we come to the problem presented by your quote where dispositor of the moon is used as object/fugitive (and not moon). This is where (I think) the conflation of horary and consultation occurs. In horary proper the Moon is given to the animate object that is lost (like animals) or to the fugitive because moon does represent the strayed animate object or fugitive (we drop moon = co-ruler of querent in this case). However, in a consultation chart, the significator of the mind of the querent is to be scrutinized and interpreted. Hence, where the querent’s mind (i.e. moon) is, is where the object/fugitive is. Hence, we have moon = querent’s mind and the dispositor of the moon = the object or fugitive that is in the querent’s mind. Therefore, we then look to dispositor of the moon to see whether the object has gone strayed or stolen. If the dispositor of the moon separates from another planet, the object is lost (not stolen). If another planet separates from the dispositor of the moon, then it is stolen (because the light of the dispositor of the moon has been taken and carried away by the planet which separates from the dispositor of the moon).
The conflation of horary proper and consultation is also seen when the astrologer assigns the first house to the fugitive and not to the querent.
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Breeze



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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello forum,

I have been studying horary for couple of months. However, I am still having diffuculties with accurute intepretation, mainly with dispositors. I have read this thread and some others related to subject. Below is how I get stuck with the dispositors. Although I have been studying the chart for couple of days, I can not still interpret it. Any help wld be highly appreciated.

http://i63.tinypic.com/sfxki9.jpg
Background : I really had hard times emotionally because of deep feelings I had someone in the office. Feeling extremly sad back in these days( and I still feel sad) , I just wondered if I wld be able to cope being still in the same workplace with him or wld. I simply move to a new one . I framed the question by one year.

First question is shd I be looking at L6 which is the work place OR L7 - the man I had romance with - as the question is erected for my feelings he caused OR both L6 and L7. If both, how am I going to interpret work place and the man which are both ruled by Saturn.

Second one - Mercury is Sun's dispositor, also the dispositor of Jupiter which is the dispositor of Saturn and Mars in 4th. L5 and L8 are also disposed by Jupiter, so somehow L5 and L8 are related to Mercury. Finally, Mercury is the dispositor of Venus which disposes 10th.

And Moon's last aspect is a square to Mercury! Mercury is stationary, will retrograde soon, in malefic degress and conjucting Jupiter, the dispositor of Saturn !

For God's sake, what this Mercury stands for in this chart. I suspect it is only the ruler of L2?

If you cld help me with my questins, I hope I will have an accurute answer.

Many thanks in advance.
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Breeze



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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked the question on the 25th August,2016
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You would use L7 for the coworker. I wouldn't get caught up on dispositors as a novice.

As a side note, I found it interesting re-reading my old post and realizing the Moon and L1 being the same shows a mind and body connection, and might be in part why astrologers associate lunar people as getting physically ill when they are emotionally taxed.

I need to try out astrojin's tip regarding the dispositor of the Moon for lost objects.
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