Nostradamus-Rectification Chart?

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I am researching a talk I am planning to do next year on Nostradamus. There doesn't appear to be an exact time for his birth.

I have found the basic data on Astrodatabank:

www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nostradamus,_Michel_de

The source notes state:
Kraum quotes "data recorded from his friend as "around noon," given in Astrology and the Occult Sciences. (December 14, 1503 OS)
Nostradamus is such a famous figure it seems likely there has been some attempts at rectifying his birth data. Does anyone know of any work on this in either traditional or modern astrological sources?

Obvious traditional English language sources would be John Gadbury's Collectio Geniturarum (Collection of Nativities) or Ebenezer Sibly's The Celestial Science of Astrology. I haven't spotted anything in either and wondered whether some older Latin collection of nativities might have a rectification for Nostradamus?

Thanks

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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We're probably lucky to have his birth time known to be around noon, as many people didn't even record the day at that time, unless they were born noble. I did my own private rectification, based on life events and got a time a bit after noon, but its so speculative I don't think its worth passing the data on.


Data Source: Brief Discours in Ianus Gallicus (1594): ?Michel de Nostredame [...] naquit en la ville de Saint-Remy, en Provence, l'an de gr?ce 1503, un Jeudi 14 D?cembre, environ les douze heures de midi?. (Rodden Rating: B).

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Hi Deb,

Yes I suppose I should be grateful for what we have! :) We have a lot less with many famous people today.

I would be interested to know what techniques you used to rectify the chart. I know there is never certainty in any rectification but I would still be interested in the time you went for after examining the chart.

I still have a lot of reading to do on Nostradamus. I suppose the first astrological decision I need to take is whether to go with an Aries or Pisces rising sign. From the pictures I have seen of him a choleric rising sign looks more appropriate than a phlegmatic sign reinforcing the Moon in Scorpio.
Image
What do others think?

Clearly, some would go for Pisces because of the psychic, spiritual connection. Here is an piece by the astrologer Hassan Jaffer
http://www.hassanjaffer.com/famous-horo ... damus.html

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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I went for 4 Taurus rising, which I think (from memory) was around 1:00 pm. Take a look at that chart and see what you think (I can't remember all the rectification details I used now I'm afraid).

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Margherita wrote:
Tried with some deadly direction?
That's the first thing they would do in Cieloeterra.
Hello Margherita,

I am quite ashamed to admit this but I have never got round to using Primary Directions. :oops:

I had a go at installing Morinus but had installation problems with python.

I am too much of a numerical dyslexic to try and do it by hand!

In any case before zooming in on a degree I wanted to make a decision on the sign through physiology as I mentioned above. Is that not the way traditional astrology did it? I know you have posted articles on Primary directions as has Deb. I just haven't set aside the time aside to seriously tackle the topic.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Here is the chart displayed for 12:00 Noon on Astrodatabank:
Image
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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[quote="Mark]
I am too much of a numerical dyslexic to try and do it by hand!

[/quote]

The same is for me.
I have the idea that if the pc works for us, why we should do things by hand? We should be the masters, not the slaves at least with "junk metal".

Anyway, in Cieloeterra they first try to find some directions because events should be accompanied with a proper direction and viceversa.

For the midday chart there is an interesting direction for death which was on July 2nd 1566 (I wonder if the chart is too much perfect to be true):
Image
This is a case for the method described in Tetrabiblos, with the Sun in the second quadrant, when it sets that is the moment of the death.
To be honest Ptolemy says we should add and subtract years for encounters with other planets, but nobody would really give a method of it, so we can use whatever, I believe :)

On the other hand it's difficult to get the appearance from the Ascendant, because we should consider Moon too.

I agree that a phlegmatic temperament (based on a Pisces ascendant) would not fit Nostradamus life.

More interesting is the Taurus ascendant, with Venus (which has a rulership on Scorpio Moon too) stress could be a sanguine temperament, maybe

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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More interesting is the Taurus ascendant, with Venus (which has a rulership on Scorpio Moon too) stress could be a sanguine temperament, maybe
I hadn't considered a Taurus rising possibility until Deb suggested it. I was forgetting how quickly signs of short ascension like Aries rise. I agree a melancholic rising sign fits very well. Actually this rectified chart has some uncanny connections to my own natal chart. :shock:

I will consider your other suggestions later. For now I will display the rectified chart used by Deb. I will offer it with two house system. Firstly with Alcabitius which was the favoured sign division method in the time of Nostradamus. Secondly, in Whole sign houses which is the house system I personally use for natal work.
Image
Image
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Hi Mark
Firstly with Alcabitius which was the favoured sign division method in the time of Nostradamus. Secondly, in Whole sign houses which was used by Greek and early Persian astrologers and is my own preferred house system for natal work.
That comment about Alcabitius is such a blanket statement and not really reliable. Regiomontanus was very popular in Europe around that time - and a 17th century hand drawn copy of a horary chart by Nostradamus matches closely to Regiomonontanus cusps. (The chart was redrawn to preserve its details, and the artist does not appear to have been an astrologer since he mistook some astrological symbols for numbers).
Whole sign houses are unlikley to have been considered by Nostradamus.

I'm placing below an image which shows the chart I use (which lacks outer-planets, because my aim was to get close to what he would have used). There is also a picture of the plaque outside the house where he was born in St Remy, South of France, giving his date of birth - I like this because it describes him as an astrologer, showing that he wasn't just a mystic, but was known for his astrology. The house with the blue shutters is the house where he was born, which still stands in St Remy; South of France
Image

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That comment about Alcabitius is such a blanket statement and not really reliable
Yes after I posted that I did start to ponder this. When did Regiomontanus eclipse Alcabitius? I was about to open a thread on that when I saw your response. I probably still will rather than let this thread go off on a total tangent on this.

Deb wrote:
I'm placing below an image which shows the chart I use (which lacks outer-planets, because my aim was to get close to what he would have used).
Thanks for sharing that Deb. Its obviously useful to get into the head space of the astrologer concerned. I agree omitting outer planets and using his chosen house system is valuable.
Regiomontanus was very popular in Europe around that time - and a 17th century hand drawn copy of a horary chart by Nostradamus matches closely to Regiomonontanus cusps. (The chart was redrawn to preserve its details, and the artist does not appear to have been an astrologer since he mistook some astrological symbols for numbers).
I am not sure when Johannes M?ller von K?nigsberg aka Regiomontanus (6 June 1436 ? 6 July 1476) first proposed the house system that now carries his name ( although I believe it was proposed earlier in Arabic astrology). I know Regiomontanus was probably the greatest astronomer and mathematician of his era so his astrological ideas carried immense respect and influence. I had assumed the wide popularity of Regiomontanus houses came later in the 16th century but it seems not.

Its interesting the person recording the chart was not an astrologer. Probably an advantage since otherwise I would have suspected the chart had been contaminated by the 17th century predominance of Regiomontanus houses.
Whole sign houses are unlikley to have been considered by Nostradamus.
Of course not. :) But they are used by me and I am planning to work on the chart. I dont go along with the notion that you have to match your house system to the era of the nativity in which you are working on. That would banish Whole sign houses to the classical and early medieval era. :D However, that doesn't mean I dont think we should try to look at the chart from the mind set of the astrologer of that era too.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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I'm pretty sure it was after Bonatti - he was still using Alchabitius if memory serves (still on my first cup of coffee, take nothing as writ in stone).

Regiomontanus came along around the time of Schoener or a little earlier, I think, and I believe the system really caught on a little bit after the Protestatnt Reformation.

As a rule (there ARE exceptions) after that time you find most Protestant astrologers using Regio, and most Catholics using Placidus.

Yes, before somebody says it, I know Morin was a Catholic and used Regio, but as a rule - it seems to have been split down religious lines more than anything.