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Mars in Libra in 12th and Venus in Scorpio in 1st
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R.A.



Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Posts: 39

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:15 am    Post subject: Mars in Libra in 12th and Venus in Scorpio in 1st Reply with quote

Hi all,
I'd really like some thoughts other than my own on the relationship between these planets in a natal chart. I have read many mixed things about Mars and Venus together -- some say its a destructive relationship, some say Venus "assuages" Mars.

Mars is weak in the twelfth in Libra, and Venus is angular in the first but in detriment in Scorpio. Do you think Venus helps Mars out? Personally I'm inclined to say yes, and no. I know some might consider the lack of ptolemaic aspect (though they are in an near partile semi-sextile) to say they cannot "see" each other and less effective in helping each other out; at the same time should they not mirror each other's strengths and weaknesses?

* As an aside note (without starting another thread), Mars is conjunct the south node. Some say that the south node is the nature of Mars. What are your thoughts on this conjunction? Does it in turn strengthen Mars? Does this strengthening augment its power for good or evil (Mars rules the ascendant).


Thanks!
R.a. Cool
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
I'd say that the 12th is not a good place for an essentially weak malefic to be. And if Mars is also the ruler of the first by sign then all the more so.
I can't see a supporting relationship between Venus and Mars because as you yourself said, they cannot see each other. So there's no reception. Maybe Mars has a nice aspect with Jupiter in good celestial state in a good house, that might help some.

Yuki
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you think Venus helps Mars out?


I cant see how. Both planets are corrupted by being in their detriment. Mars is in detriment , cadent and a natural malefic. As dispositors go this is not promising. There is no mutual reception without a ptolemaic aspect involved although there is what Ibn Ezra described a 'generosity' or 'liberality' between these planets. Still, with the planets inconjunct or in aversion to each and in their detriment its difficult to see how that can be of much use. Its true Lilly sometimes used semi-sextiles but even he regarded them as weak in influence. This rather reminds me of Olivia Barclay's saying that two debilitated planets in reception are like two drunks trying to help each other along the road. Venus is angular so has power to act. However, its corrupted nature and that of its dispositor makes me wonder if this can really be wholesome for the native? I would be looking elsewhere for hopeful indications.

Quote:
As an aside note (without starting another thread), Mars is conjunct the south node. Some say that the south node is the nature of Mars. What are your thoughts on this conjunction? Does it in turn strengthen Mars? Does this strengthening augment its power for good or evil (Mars rules the ascendant).


This is a subject that has long confused astrologers. William Ramesey in his 17th century book Astrology Restored concludes that there is such controversy in the topic each must decide for themselves. In a nutshell there are essentially three schools of thought on the Nodes in traditional astrology:

1 Ancient Greek/Indian Astrology: Both Nodes are unfortunate if planets conjunct ( or square them).

2 Medieval ( e.g. Bonatti) : The North Node increases whatever it contacts and the South Node diminishes. From this view a malefic planet is preferable at the South Node as it decreases its influence. Equally, a malefic at the North Node would increase its power to do harm.

Quote:
Know that the nature of the Head of the Dragon is of increasing; if she is in conjunction with favourable planets, there is augmentation in their sovereignty and force; if she is in conjunction with unfavourable planets, therefore they augment their nuisance and unhappiness. In the same way, the Tail of the Dragon is of the nature of reducing. If she is in conjunction with favourable planets, she diminishes their advantage; but if it is with unfavourable planets, she diminishes their evils and their damage. I advise you to understand what precedes with care. From "The Picatrix", Book 3, Chapter 3, Para 10


3 William Lilly (17th century). Lilly acknowledged the medieval view but differed from it due to his personal experience. According to Lilly the North Node is of the nature of Jupiter and Venus ie benefic and the South Node of the nature of Saturn and Mars ie malefic.

Personally, I have found both nodes troublesome in many charts so I have sympathy for the view expressed by Lilly and the ancient authors on the South Node. While I see the theoretical case for suggesting the South Node could lessen the malefic power of Mars and Saturn its always a troublesome and difficult point in my experience.

Here are links to two very useful articles on the nodes in traditional astrology by the Italian astrologer Lucia Bellizia and the Brazilian astrologer Clelia Romano:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/nodes.html

http://www.astrologiahumana.com/lunar_nodes_in_traditional_astrology.pdf

Mark
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus


Last edited by Mark on Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it was Bonatti who said that you don't want a dignified malefic in the 12th house because that makes your secret enemies too good. Planets in 12 are hampered. It might be just as well to have Mars there where it can't do much except it's the ascendant ruler. That's not good. No exaltation for Scorp, but is the ascendant in a different triplicity? If Venus is in triplicity, that might help Venus a bit, too, even though it's still detrimented.

Venus in 1 or 10, especially if it's on the angle, will usually bring popularity - I've seen that happen regardless - even in the charts of many of the talentless yet famous, and a few of the talented and famous as well. But it's going to express in a corrupted state. Triplicity and a good aspect from Jupiter could go a long ways towards helping that. Even from the Moon, though I say that with some hesitancy because Moon falls in Scorp - still, I've seen it happen.

Do Venus and Mars help each other through generosity? A little, I think. I've seen Mars in Pisces help Venus in Aries in several charts.

Conjunctions to the nodes are not happy things. They're likely to further corrupt Mars, and as Mars rules the ascendant, this is bad news. I'm also not crazy about nodes falling in 6/12, especially conjunct something. Nodes are mostly not good, and those are the two worst houses of the horoscope. Put them together, especially on a planet, and you may find yourself dealing with 12/6 house issues way more than your fair share.

Here's hoping to many mitigations, though Venus if it's angular is strong, and will always try to do good - and a lot of times it will succeed. It is the lesser benefic, after all. What house are Jupiter and the Sun in? Sun's got to be within two signs of Venus at most, here's hoping it falls on the later side instead of in Libra.

You can see problems in most charts - but if, say, Sun is also in 1, but not burning up Venus, that's going to help a lot. As would a decent Jupiter that's not cadent, and a reasonably dignified moon.
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Canada

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Mark's and Olivia's POV

A few points:

1- A planet in detriment or fall doesn't rule very effectively; it doesn't help any of the planets it rules.

2- Debilitated planets cannot receive.

3- As far as the Nodes, I side with Bonatti's ideas.


james
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R.A.



Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Posts: 39

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Quote:
Do you think Venus helps Mars out?
Its true Lilly sometimes used semi-sextiles but even he regarded them as weak in influence.


Thanks Mark for all your information! I am going to count the semisextile. Why? Well, it's partile and thus very significant. So there is some help.
Robert Cross Smith in Manual of Astrology states it to be moderately beneficial and fortunate.


Last edited by R.A. on Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
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R.A.



Joined: 28 Oct 2010
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
Hi,
I'd say that the 12th is not a good place for an essentially weak malefic to be. And if Mars is also the ruler of the first by sign then all the more so.
I can't see a supporting relationship between Venus and Mars because as you yourself said, they cannot see each other. So there's no reception. Maybe Mars has a nice aspect with Jupiter in good celestial state in a good house, that might help some.

Yuki

Thanks, Yuki.
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R.A.



Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Posts: 39

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
I think it was Bonatti who said that you don't want a dignified malefic in the 12th house because that makes your secret enemies too good. Planets in 12 are hampered. It might be just as well to have Mars there where it can't do much except it's the ascendant ruler. That's not good. No exaltation for Scorp, but is the ascendant in a different triplicity? If Venus is in triplicity, that might help Venus a bit, too, even though it's still detrimented.

Venus is in her triplicity, yep which does help signficantly in my book. She is also assisted(potentially) by a trine from Moon in Cancer (lot of fortune) in the 9th house, but Moon also squares Mars, yuck.

Quote:
Venus in 1 or 10, especially if it's on the angle, will usually bring popularity - I've seen that happen regardless - even in the charts of many of the talentless yet famous, and a few of the talented and famous as well. But it's going to express in a corrupted state. Triplicity and a good aspect from Jupiter could go a long ways towards helping that. Even from the Moon, though I say that with some hesitancy because Moon falls in Scorp - still, I've seen it happen.

Yeah, the Moon trines Venus. What also may help too, Mercury is in term in the first house as 11th/8th ruler, these planets IMO would help strengthen the ascendant.

Quote:

Here's hoping to many mitigations, though Venus if it's angular is strong, and will always try to do good - and a lot of times it will succeed. It is the lesser benefic, after all. What house are Jupiter and the Sun in? Sun's got to be within two signs of Venus at most, here's hoping it falls on the later side instead of in Libra.

Sun is in Libra at 19 degrees, Mars is one degree under the sunbeams. Jupiter is in Aries opposing Sun.

Quote:
You can see problems in most charts - but if, say, Sun is also in 1, but not burning up Venus, that's going to help a lot. As would a decent Jupiter that's not cadent, and a reasonably dignified moon.

Jupiter is cadent and retrograde, but in triplicity, and also tenth from the lot of fortune which is strong to me. There is a mundane square to the Moon and 10° separating sextile, still in orb!

Thanks, Liv!
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
I think it was Bonatti who said that you don't want a dignified malefic in the 12th house because that makes your secret enemies too good. Planets in 12 are hampered. It might be just as well to have Mars there where it can't do much except it's the ascendant ruler.


I thought a malefic in bad celestial state in an unfortunate house promotes evil whereas a malefic in good celestial state in an unfortunate house can save one from misfortune or at least lessen it.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am going to count the semisextile. Why? Well, it's partile and thus very significant. So there is some help. Robert Cross Smith in Manual of Astrology states it to be moderately beneficial and fortunate.


He may have stated it but that doesn't mean his statement is necessarily true or reliable Very Happy
From the tradition's point of view, there is no "semi-sextile". Scorpio/Libra do not behold each other, so no aspect. In fact, they're in aversion.

As others have pointed out, two planets in their detriment do not possess resources to help each other. Much less so when they can not establish a relationship with each other by an aspect. The relationship between the two is traditionally termed 'generosity', but that's a very weak kind of reception that can bestow on each other only that which they have at their disposal.
In this case they're both corrupted/very low on resources.

Regards,
Goran


Last edited by cor scorpii on Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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R.A.



Joined: 28 Oct 2010
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:
Quote:
I am going to count the semisextile. Why? Well, it's partile and thus very significant. So there is some help. Robert Cross Smith in Manual of Astrology states it to be moderately beneficial and fortunate.


Many people state many things, that doesn't make them necessarily true or reliable.
From the traditions' point of view, there is no "semi-sextile". Scorpio/Libra do not behold each other, so no aspect. In fact, they're in aversion.
As others have pointed out, two planets in their detriment do not possess resources to help each other. Much less so when they can not establish a relationship with each other by an aspect. The relationship between the two is traditionally termed 'generosity', but that's a very weak kind of reception that can bestow on each other only that which they have at their disposal.
In this case they're both in a corrupted condition.

Goran


Hi Goran, I am an observer of modern and traditional, moreso traditional. Someone pointed out that Lilly used the semisextile. I haven't stated my view other than I'm considering the semisextile(partile aspects I find to be especially deserving of consideration)--mostly I wanted to hear what other people had to say--so thank you for your view!
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R.A.



Joined: 28 Oct 2010
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:

He may have stated it but that doesn't mean his statement is necessarily true or reliable Very Happy

Ahem, and that could be said about anything else written. Very Happy But let's not take this thread to revolve around his merit.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course Very Happy only his point of view is not in keeping with the long string of traditional astrologers that are pretty much in harmony and accord when it comes to the topic of aspects, i.e what represents an aspect and what definitely isn't one.

Kepler, who introduced all these additional "minor aspects" was probably too much of a mathematician to be a good astrologer. Lilly played around with them a bit, but I don't remember him using them extensively in his delineations.

Regards,
Goran
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R.A.



Joined: 28 Oct 2010
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Goran, I understand. I wanted to get some traditional consensus on the relationship of these two planets and I appreciate your remark.

What's interesting is that they [the planets] have appeared to manifest in a bipolar way, the person would rather feel and be the martian angry energy but knows its extremely destructive and unattractive. So they have to rely on and use the Venus energy to be socially accepted to many.
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—Cardanus.


Last edited by R.A. on Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew I'd posted this somewhere in the forum, it was in the horary section. From Bob Zoller:

Quote:
Now this is a curious thing because a malefic planet such as
Saturn in Leo in poor zodiacal state is a nasty planet. Saturn
in Leo is a troublemaker and is trying to stir up difficulties. It
would like to cause greater harm but it cannot effect its full
nature because it is in a solar Sign and therefore it is, as it
were, very upset and waxed wrath so to speak, but it cannot
really effect as much danger and difficulty as it would like to.


Which kind of sounds a bit like your Mars situation.
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