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Innocent or Guilty
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daz madrigal



Joined: 09 Jun 2006
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Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:53 pm    Post subject: Innocent or Guilty Reply with quote

This is the Noon-Chart of Vincent Tabak the man currently charged with the murder by strangulation of Jo Yeates in Bristol during Christmas.

I'm finding it very difficult to see this man as capable of murder..I've rectified the chart several times and looked at all transits and progressions but can't find anything that would produce any alarm bells for an astrolger.

What do you guys think?



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Astraea



Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, I don't think we can see the specific capacity for murder in a natal chart, even one that is accurately timed. I have followed this case very closely, and thought that Chris Jefferies (the landlord) had very ominous indications in his natal chart, yet he apparently is innocent. It seems to me that all of us, given a certain confluence of circumstances and timing, are capable of appalling things - including murder - regardless of indicators pointing toward a gentle nature.
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm..I must admit I've contemplated murder a few times, a guy called Avid Merrion tops the list Mad I think I'd require some particularly heavy transits to carry it through though.

Just need a bit more courage!
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PFN



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Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it hard to pinpoint anything without a safe Asc, but this chart does have some stressfull aspects as the opposition of the Sun to Saturn.

Anyway, another chart that always bugged me is this:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ramirez%2C_Ricardo

Ricardo Ramirez, a.k.a Richard Ramirez:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: Ramirez Chart

Although we need a lot more than this, it struck me that Ramirez chart has every classical planet below the horizon. Ted Bundy had every classical planet below the horizon except Saturn which was in Leo, retrograde and in the 12th house.

Mercury his intellect, is virtually stationary, in detriment and fall, conjunct the south node, and squares his ASC ruler.

Still at first glance there isn't anything atrocious in the chart.
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Innocent or Guilty Reply with quote

daz madrigal wrote:
This is the Noon-Chart of Vincent Tabak the man currently charged with the murder by strangulation of Jo Yeates in Bristol during Christmas.

I'm finding it very difficult to see this man as capable of murder..I've rectified the chart several times and looked at all transits and progressions but can't find anything that would produce any alarm bells for an astrolger.



It is a waste of time to work with chart without reliable birth time or at least without rectified birth time. The info one can get from noon or solar chart is so scanty that is better to try to guess the rising sign by appearance or by the placement of the planets in the houses. No wonder that you can't find any transit or progressions: the most important and crucial points are the angles.
I looked at some charts of famous serial killers. In most cases, adding the heliocentric positions in any chart can clarify the destiny of the person.
1. Richard Ramirez:
In several charts of "successful" serial killer we can see a prominent Jupiter. Here it is rising in Sag. Helio Mars is exactly conjunct helio Saturn, square MC/IC. Vertex in opposition to Mars.
2. Ted Bundy:
Jupiter and Venus conjunct IC. Saturn conjunct Pluto in 12th squaring MC/IC, Pluto 90 Venus in Scorpio.
Helio Mercury conjunct Uranus and in opposition to helio Mars with very small orbs.
3. Edward Gein:
Pluto in opposition to Moon right on Asc/Desc axis. Mars on IC.
4. Jeffrey Dahmer:
Helio Mars in opposition to Pluto, both square Sun and Mercury in 8th. Saturn on IC, square Moon on Desc. Helio Venus, ruler of 8th 180 Neptune.
5. John Wayne Gacy:
Mars, Uranus and Saturn on Desc. Helio Mercury 190 helio Jupiter in Gemini – "success" with the young.

In Vincent Tabrek's chart, helio Mars is square helio Uranus and in opposition to Mercury.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is a waste of time to work with chart without reliable birth time or at least without rectified birth time. The info one can get from noon or solar chart is so scanty that is better to try to guess the rising sign by appearance or by the placement of the planets in the houses.


I agree with Isaac here. Plus I think its all too easy to slip into determinist thinking on this kind of topic. I dont think any one chart factor is ever going to repeat in all charts. Rather than look at one factor I think we need to consider several indicators. Tom's point about planets under the horizon is interesting. I know this comes up in horary as an indicator for non-recovery of lost property. I hadn't thought of this as an indicator of a killer. Especially, as such activities often eventually bring the perpetrator into media attention. Presumably this could be more the case for planets that lack dignity (corrupted) and are out of sect.

I have noticed a few things that occur a lot (although not all the time). A debilitated Moon and/or ascendant ruler or Saturn/Mars on angles or aspecting Moon/ASC/MC/Almuten of 1st. I have also noticed how prominent malefic fixed stars often are in the charts of murderers. I suspect (but haven't researched) that antiscia and the parts/lots will indicate a lot too.

I will post up some data on some famous Scottish serial killers for others to research. We have birth certificates in Scotland that record the time of birth so it makes this kind of research much easier. Sadly Scotland has produced a totally disproportionate number of infamous serial killers Shocked Sad

Mark
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Plus I think its all too easy to slip into determinist thinking on this kind of topic. I dont think any one chart factor is ever going to repeat in all charts.


Chris Warnock made an interesting point one time: he showed a chart from an awful killer born in London.

Then he showed all the factors that "made" him the killer.

And after that he showed that the chart was of Gandhi, but recolocated to avoid suspicion.

Moral: astrologers usually see what they want.
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Astraea



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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:

Chris Warnock made an interesting point one time: he showed a chart from an awful killer born in London.

Then he showed all the factors that "made" him the killer.

And after that he showed that the chart was of Gandhi, but recolocated to avoid suspicion.

Moral: astrologers usually see what they want.

Exactly. I almost referenced Ghandi's chart in my earlier post, because it looks so ominous. The actual outworking of the energies set forth in charts depends on a great deal more than planetary positioning.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astraea wrote:
Quote:
I almost referenced Ghandi's chart in my earlier post, because it looks so ominous. The actual outworking of the energies set forth in charts depends on a great deal more than planetary positioning.


I agree with you although there is no verified birth time for Gandhi. Even the rising sign is disputed.

Generally though I reiterate that we need to avoid a determinist approach to this kind of issue. There are factors that undeniably represent 'cause for concern' in a nativity. However, how people work through such difficult configurations is where free will comes into the horoscope. I was really tempted to put up my own chart here and try and pass it off as another noted killer. Natally, my moon is debiliated ( In Scorpio, decreasing in light, slow in motion, end of sign and out of sign square to Saturn). I have an angular Jupiter (rising) in partile conj with ASC which according to Isaac is a common factor in killers charts. The dispositors of my soul (Moon and Mercury) are Mars and Saturn respectively. On the traditional forum a few months back one astrologer implied that the majority of people with this in their chart were killers! On top of this my ascendant/descendant axis is the same as the Scottish child murderer Ian Brady (and a degree out from Charles Manson). My descendant is on the malefic fixed star Zuben Elgenubi. My Sun is in antiscion with Algol. Presented with this chart and told here is the chart of a really nasty killer I am sure you might get quite a few nodding heads here adding their own thoughts to the confirmed analysis of why this guy was a real baddie.

Smile

Mark
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daz madrigal
Quote:
I'm finding it very difficult to see this man as capable of murder..I've rectified the chart several times and looked at all transits and progressions but can't find anything that would produce any alarm bells for an astrolger.


I can't help but wonder what would have set off alarm bells to suggest that a person is born a murderer. What kind of things would you have expected to see that would indicate for you that this person is a murderer from birth?
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
daz madrigal
Quote:
I'm finding it very difficult to see this man as capable of murder..I've rectified the chart several times and looked at all transits and progressions but can't find anything that would produce any alarm bells for an astrolger.


I can't help but wonder what would have set off alarm bells to suggest that a person is born a murderer. What kind of things would you have expected to see that would indicate for you that this person is a murderer from birth?



I'd expect to find a few transits and progressions in the chart at the time of the murder, particularly those of of a more malefic nature.


Quote:
Mercury his intellect, is virtually stationary, in detriment and fall, conjunct the south node, and squares his ASC ruler.

Still at first glance there isn't anything atrocious in the chart.


This is interesting, Tom, because Tabak also has a planet virtually stationary but in this case its Mars. Natally its at 24 Cancer and almost stationary and at the moment it has returned from retrograde by transit to 23 Cancer. In effect Mars has been conjunct its own natal position for 32 yrs by progression and will continue to be so for the next 25 yrs approx.

His Father, also a very educated chap, said this about his son "Anyone who knows him knows he could never be a killer. He is very gentle and social. There is no aggressiveness in him in any way" Whilst this is only one factor would it be fair to suggest that this absence of aggression sits awkwardly when the fact that Mars is conjunct its natal position is taken into consideration.
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astraea wrote:
It seems to me that all of us, given a certain confluence of circumstances and timing, are capable of appalling things - including murder.


I've heard this cliche many times before and it really has no basis in any kind of reality I know of. It is akin to suggesting that we all have the capability of playing football like George Best due to being in possession of two legs. The promoter of this argument usually distorts the case by promulgating an extreme scenario in which the person is attacked and then has to fight for his life by killing his attacker(s) by any means to hand, in other words saving his/her life by ending anothers.

The promoter of said cliche fails to take into account the sheer meaningless banality of murdering someone for little, if any, reason.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:
Quote:
Plus I think its all too easy to slip into determinist thinking on this kind of topic. I dont think any one chart factor is ever going to repeat in all charts.


Chris Warnock made an interesting point one time: he showed a chart from an awful killer born in London.

Then he showed all the factors that "made" him the killer.

And after that he showed that the chart was of Gandhi, but recolocated to avoid suspicion.

Moral: astrologers usually see what they want.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_validation

and that has been the argument against astrology. !!
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
that has been the argument against astrology. !!


I am not personally interested in trying to meet the hoops and hamster wheels decided for us by scientific reductionism. It’s the old dilemma isn’t it? If astrology predicts everything where is the room for any individual free will? If it doesn’t predict anything at all what is the point of astrology? I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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