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Innocent or Guilty
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Astraea



Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 351
Location: Colorado, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daz madrigal, I only meant to suggest that the planets are alchemized by the soul, attuning their expressions along a spectrum of enlightenment - with the "sheer meaningless banality of murdering someone for little, if any, reason" at the lowest end. The self-defense argument would not be a factor in that scenario. Those are just my thoughts, and maybe I am wrong.
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
The problem is to find and agree on which is the middle.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mark wrote:
I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


Quote:
Eddy wrote:
The problem is to find and agree on which is the middle.


Hi Eddy,

I was suggesting a compromise acceptable to us each individually on a phenomelogical basis not for the whole astrological community! As I see it value free astrology does not exist. Underling such astrological questions are people's basic philosophy on life. These differ so much between astrologers I dont actually think a consensus is possible. For example , the attitudes of Platonism, Islam, Roman Catholicism , Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism are all different in regards questions of free will, determinism, and the notion of life after death (and its pre-existence). These varying visions of existence will motivate astrologers to see issues such as murderers with different eyes. Even within these labels there is likely to be wide variations according to individual perspective. The question is much deeper and more profound than astrology can ever deliver on its own.

ooops this is becoming like the philosophy forum...sorry Deb.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably it's impossible to reach a consensus Mark. Let's cross the agreement part out. But even for each individual's approach it's difficult to find. One time you see things pointing in the good direction and the other time there's nothing to be seen. Anyhow, I feel the same about the dilemma. For looking in the person the main ingredients of the social, economic, cultural, genetical has to be looked at and the past. With a teaspoon of astrology the past can be researched to see to be used if there are possible outcomes to predict.

With delineating the chart of a murder suspect I have some ethical problems. The man hasn't been convicted yet, nor have I heard about a confession. Trial by media is worse enough. I somewhat feel uncomfortable with trial by astrology.

edit: I too was getting a bit philosophical, sorry for that, I'll leave it with this.

Some astrology,
I don't see why Daz doesn't see any transits and progression. If you don't take the orb too tight, then Neptune over Venus and Uranus over Moon could be something. Progressed Sun is approaching trine to Mars. From rulerships point of view the positive of the trine is diminished by Mars' position in Cancer. Mars' trine with Moon wouldn't be too fine either. Perhaps indicators for an upcoming trial. On the primary directions by right ascension (for which an exact birthtime is not really necessary when planet to planet is used), Sun to square Pluto is found. (sorry trads, I needed the modern planets at the moment Smile ) However hadn't I known anything about the subject, I would have said there would be a period of passiveness or introvertedness.
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daz madrigal



Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 331

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't see why Daz doesn't see any transits and progression. If you don't take the orb too tight, then Neptune over Venus and Uranus over Moon could be something. Progressed Sun is approaching trine to Mars. From rulerships point of view the positive of the trine is diminished by Mars' position in Cancer.


Thanks Eddy, I didn't feel the NEP t worthy of mention in the traditional forum but would accept it as relevant. The Prog Sun trine to Mars is interesting when taking account of the almost stationary position of Mars in the chart by progression (mentioned earlier). Although trine this could be viewed in a more stressful light when it becomes exact later this year 2011.

Not many murderers out there possess PHD's..I wonder just how watertight the Police evidence actually is.
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Mansoor



Joined: 26 Nov 2010
Posts: 56

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi.
This discussion about killers is intriguing. I am not sure if we can talk about a murderer as we can talk about a spade. Since there are various types of killers, what the chart is likely to show is only one or the other tendency in the mental makeup of the person. That's why the Gandhi example is so instructive. One who kills in a fit of rage without any premeditation and is then shattered by remorse at what he has done will probably only show a tendency to uncontrollable anger in his chart – such a one might be otherwise a thoroughly kind-hearted creature; one who kills for greed or gain, is likely to show that anomalous tendency to greed and coupled with it a lack of feelings or emotions and maybe even a very methodical way of working; one who kills for the pleasure of killing – for whom disemboweling or dismembering a victim is a fine art – is likely to show a very high order of Martian skills and maybe even an exceptional brain (I try to imagine the nativity of Hannibal Lecter, M.D. – the most sparkling and accomplished intellect imaginable; an absolute charmer!); one who kills because he believes God has appointed him to cleanse the earth of various sinful souls will probably show abnormal religious inclinations coupled with a tendency to hallucinations or delusion; one who kills because he derives unusual sexual pleasure from the very act of butchering will show an aberrant sexual tendency in one or the other way. In many of these cases, cruelty may be an important clue, also isolation and the sense of self-worth, because the individual’s relationship with the world and people around him/her is a highly subjective matter, especially with the “abnormal” types. The best example of this kind of unusually heightened subjectivity is seen, for example, in autism. A killer may not think of himself as a criminal, but a thoroughly nice person. I think this is one of the points where palmistry goes beyond or seems at least marginally more capable of transcending the determinism inherent in the astrological attitude. The lines upon the palm seem more to be at the service of the mind (I am deliberately avoiding “brain”) and can change or be made to change with the power of human will. As far as transits are concerned, they may mark the period when “the time is ripe”, as it were – but ripe for what? For things to happen or for the “abnormal” types to choose or decide to act in a way that brings them in serious conflict with social and human laws? Honestly, trying to see “a murderer” in a chart is to me like trying to see “marriage” in a chart – the latter may in fact be some times more clearly visible.
Regards,
Mansoor
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 711

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was an exact Chiron Neptune (and Phaethon) conjunction in Aquarius in December 2010, which transited his Venus in Aquarius exactly.

Natally his Venus aspects both Chiron's antiscion and Saturn by tight, hard aspects.

As you pointed out, we do not know his time of birth, hence chart angles, but I suspect, from studying other charts of such people and events, that his chart angles would have made Solar Arc progressions to make hard aspects to his natal Venus or planets that natally aspect her. This would really magnify the effect of the natal aspect and the transits. Without a Solar Arc progression of the angles to his Venus, such a horrible event would probably never have happened, low level evil can fester forever without doing very much. (Transits of IsisTranspluto don't seem to need a Solar Arc to manifest, and IsisTranspluto had opposed his natal Venus a few years earlier, so I wonder how that manifested itself....are they sure he hadn't killed before?).

Saturn on its own is not evil, but when it is involved in a dualistic aspect, such as with Chiron, to Venus, or to Mars, it seems to have a hard, deliberate evil, as in the charts of Ted Bundy http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bundy,_Ted and Richard Cottingham, who were born a day apart. There are other dualistic patterns (most commonly to Venus in murderers' charts), but when Saturn is involved in one there is a distinctly non-vulnerable quality, where the act seemed deliberate.


Last edited by Fleur on Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:33 am; edited 5 times in total
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:


Anyway, another chart that always bugged me is this:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ramirez%2C_Ricardo

Ricardo Ramirez, a.k.a Richard Ramirez:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez


Ricardo Ramirez has his natal Venus, 9 degrees Aquarius 26 minutes, exactly opposition IsisTranspluto at 9 degrees Leo 40 minutes, and at the time of the murders transiting IsisTranspluto was around 21 degrees Leo, in 1984/5.

The antiscion of his natal Venus is 20 degrees Scorpio 34 minutes, so transiting IsisTranspluto was squaring this at the time of his murders.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Re: Ramirez Chart

Mercury his intellect, is virtually stationary, in detriment and fall, conjunct the south node, and squares his ASC ruler.



Interesting. I read that Ricardo Ramirez had a genius level IQ. I have never been able to work out how you see that in a chart, though oddly I have noticed that it seems to be often more about Venus than Mercury, especially in mathematicians, just an observation, might be wrong.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 711

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People always seem to focus on the bad guys and forget the victims. I don't know her time of birth, but prefer to use the early hours of the morning than a noon chart, as far more births happen in the early hours of the morning than the middle of the day.

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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 148
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:

Vincent Tabak's natal Chiron (01Tau33) is tightly conjunct (afflicting) the fixed star Mira (01Tau31) which is afflicted by a trine from natal Saturn (27Leo36) and a square from Mars (24Can51).

Afflicted Mira is "failures, fiascos, enmity and melancholia".

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/cetus.html#mira

The Moon on the day in question (17 Dec 2010) is at 02Tau40 and there is a cluster of planets trining: Mars, Pluto and Mercury from 02 to 07 Cap.

Dude was having a very, very bad day.


Happy Holidays.
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