46
mark,

thanks for sharing your overview on the ingress charts and what they might imply here. i think the cancer ingress needs to be considered. i don't know about the rule of fixed rising - aries only ingress either, but we have mutable rising in the aries ingress which is said to only last until the cancer ingress.. what are your thoughts on which planet is stronger in the charts - mercury or jupiter, or the idea if the ascendant represents the people and the ruler of the ascendant and the 10th happen to be both mercury? mercury is weak in the aries ingress chart, more so then in the cancer ingress chart as i read it. what do you take the application of the moon to the square of jupiter in the cancer ingress and wouldn't the moon be the obvious planet to symbolize the people generally?

matthew - as mark points out, the difference between the ingress charts for edinburgh and london is very small (about 1 degree to be exact -ascendant 17 virgo instead of 16 virgo).. as i understand it one can cast an ingress chart for anywhere they want, regardless of where the political power resides. i don't know if an ingress chart to ottawa would shed much light on the events of the westcoast of canada as the charts will be very different. in this example - they are very similar.

andrew - good point!

47
Mjacob wrote:
Perhaps this indicates the ambiguity of Scotland. Scotland is voting to become a separate country but it already is. Whilst the Assembly in Edinburgh is relatively new Scotland has always had its own law and United Kingdom means just that. Two kingdoms that happen to have the same monarch (but what do I, a Sassenach know?)
Scotland has always retained a degree of distinctiveness within the Union. As you point out when Scotland and England united in 1707 it was agreed Scotland would retain its own legal system, education system and Church.

Culturally too as a 'home nation' Scotland has its own Football, Rugby, Athletics Association etc. Scottish Banks can also issue their own Bank notes.

The Scottish Parliament has added to this Scottish particularism since it now has powers over much of domestic policy. However, there is a clear distinction between devolved and reserved powers.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/visit ... 25488.aspx

Devolved powers to the Scottish Parliament include:

-agriculture, forestry and fisheries
-education and training
-environment
-health and social services
-housing
-law and order
-local government
-sport and the arts
-tourism and economic development
-many aspects of transport

Reserved powers retained by the UK parliament are:

-benefits and social security
-immigration
-defence
-foreign policy
-employment
-broadcasting
-trade and industry
-nuclear energy, oil, coal, gas and electricity
-consumer rights
-data protection
-the Constitution

In theory the Scottish parliament has tax raising powers but it has never really exercised these and its funding is still essentially a block of funding decided by the UK government. So while we can describe Scotland in the loosest sense as a 'country' it is clearly not a separate state in the strict political sense.

Mjacob wrote:
By casting a chart for Scotland are we not putting the cart before the horse? The new separate Scotland does not yet exist so we cannot do an ingress chart yet.
Aren't you rather trying to have your cake and eat it here Matthew? lol
First you state Scotland is separate country but now you state it cannot have its own chart?

Scotland does exist as a recognised political entity within the UK. The referendum is only taking place there. I have seen ingress charts using issues specific to US states so why not here? Still, in practical terms the ingress charts located for Edinburgh and London are little different.

Mjacob wrote:
Perhaps the emphasis should be on the UK chart for London. I do not have Bonatti with me but they must have something equivalent in the ultramontane kingdoms where he lived.
I favour a London based chart not because of the non-viability of a Scottish one but because it removes any debate on who is Lord 10. Although in Scotland that is precisely the issue at stake so Geoffrey's comment about a double -bodied sign on the MC is telling for both charts.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

48
Mjacob wrote:
Two kingdoms that happen to have the same monarch (but what do I, a Sassenach know?)
Well as a Albannach myself I should point out we have been one united kingdom for over 300 years.

Actually, creating one kingdom was probably the main reason the English had for wanting to create a political union with Scotland in 1707. The plan was that by Scotland adopting the Act of Settlement the possibility of a Roman Catholic being a British monarch again would be permanently removed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Settlement_1701

The Highland Jacobite rebellions of 1715 and 1745 tried to overturn that idea and return a Catholic Stewart monarch to the British throne. Ultimately, though that cause was defeated at the battle of Culloden in 1746.

To this day a Roman Catholic cannot be crowned British monarch or be married to one due to the Act of Settlement. Its obviously a total anachronism today. However, if this act was abolished it would remove the British monarch as head of the Church of England and this would then probably require disestablishment of the COE.

But yes if Scotland votes for independence Great Britain will no longer be one Kingdom. The SNP have not proposed Scotland becoming a republic but rather retaining the monarch as head of state like other commonwealth realms such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm

Alex Salmond, the SNP leader and Scottish First minister is a clever political operator and is very well aware that taking on the issue of independence is a big enough hurdle without also raising the topic of a republic!

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Thu May 15, 2014 12:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

49
I knew that I was simplyfing the issue a little but it is more complex than I imagined. Perhaps I should simply drag myself down to the ALL and listen to your talk. If it has implications for the CoE too I need to keep up to date
If I remember right Scotland bankrupted itself by investing all in some colonial scheme that went belly up and then had to ally with England for economic reasons and the economic viability of North Britain still seems to be the issue today
Matthew
Matthew Goulding

50
Mjacob wrote:
I knew that I was simplyfing the issue a little but it is more complex than I imagined. Perhaps I should simply drag myself down to the ALL and listen to your talk.
You know you want to Matthew!

Mjacob wrote:
If I remember right Scotland bankrupted itself by investing all in some colonial scheme that went belly up and then had to ally with England for economic reasons ...
Yes I do briefly mention that. The so called Darien scheme or Darien disaster was a strong economic motivation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

However,there were other powerful economic reasons many of the Scottish elite and mercantile class wanted to unite with England. Most importantly access to trade throughout the English Empire. Scotland was excluded from trade in the English Empire due to the navigation acts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation_Acts

Other colonial powers such as Spain, France and the Netherlands were also restricting the Scots from trading in their overseas territories. Joining with England not only gave access to the English empire but the protection of the Royal Navy. I do a potted history of key events in Scotland before looking at the Scottish charts in the first half of the evening.

Mjacob wrote:
...and the economic viability of North Britain still seems to be the issue today
Funny though that British media headlines seldom express concern over the economic viability of rUK if Scotland goes. I do worry about how rUK will overcome a horrific balance of payments deficit without the ongoing boon of North Sea Oil reserves. :wink:

Things don't look that great even now with Scotland onboard. It seems discussing the potential impact of Scottish independence is the elephant in the room that seldom gets much publicity.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3372571

Earlier complacency that the Better Together or 'no'' campaign had this referendum result safely tucked away now look rather unwise. There has been a steady movement to the yes campaign in polls so that a yes result no longer looks an implausible possibility:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3382125

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Thu May 15, 2014 1:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

51
The whole issue has parallels with the campaign for Britain - or will that be England ? :-? - to leave the EEC. The more popular the idea becomes the more horrifying are the tales of economic doom that will befall us coming from the establishment. It is ironic, to me at least, to see a more reasoned debate on an astrological forum than in the mainstream media.
Matthew
Matthew Goulding

52
James-M wrote:
i think the cancer ingress needs to be considered.
I agree.
i don't know about the rule of fixed rising - aries only ingress either, but we have mutable rising in the aries ingress which is said to only last until the cancer ingress..
A lot of sources suggest a mutable chart lasts until the Libra ingress.

To recap:

-Aries ingress with cardinal sign rising: examine all 4 ingress charts
-Aries ingress with mutable sign rising: examine Aries and Libra ingress charts
-Aries ingress with fixed sign rising: Aries ingress chart only.

But I think some Perso-Arabic astrologers (Abu Ma'Shar?) were more flexible than that.

Whatever, they said my personal experience tells me to always look at the prior ingress before an election/referendum. I recommend a look at the prior lunation too :wink:

James_M wrote:
what are your thoughts on which planet is stronger in the charts - mercury or jupiter, or the idea if the ascendant represents the people and the ruler of the ascendant and the 10th happen to be both mercury? mercury is weak in the aries ingress chart, more so then in the cancer ingress chart as i read it. what do you take the application of the moon to the square of jupiter in the cancer ingress and wouldn't the moon be the obvious planet to symbolize the people generally?
I am trying to keep my head down for now on judging the referendum outcome. Once my article appears I will feel more free to share my take on how I see this and will be posting a lot here.

In the meantime what do you and others think?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

53
hi mark,

thanks for articulating all this. the question over which ingress to use has forced me to start reading the dykes translation 'works of sahl and masha'allah'... your summary is in line with chapter 4 page 328 which is a part of mashallah's 'revolutions of the years of the world' section inside this dykes book. i had actually read bonatti's 'mundane astrology' book previous to this - another dykes translation and was going on memory.. he might have been more influenced by abu masher- i am not sure on these details.. i was mostly going on the distinction of the rising sign though and i note that it is open to interpretation if for example the lord of the year which is gotten off the strongest planet in the ingress chart, which also depends on whether it is moveable, fixed or common..

in answer to your question in response to mine - i will say this.. i think reading charts as they relate to a particular location and have to do with events in that area will only properly be done by someone who has a fuller or more complete understanding on matters connected directly to that place. that would definitely be you who i take it live in the area and have made a point of familiarizing yourself with this specific issue which is the basis for this thread! that said, i will offer some of my own thoughts on both the aries and cancer ingress making note of the question over use of the cancer ingress in this particular example..

from refreshing my mind on the process of doing this, i conclude that jupiter is the lord of the year in the aries ingress. i base this on mercury's being cadent to the descendant in the domicile of jupiter, while jupiter is approaching the midheaven.. both planets mercury and jupiter are in a favourable trine to one another so it could be argued that salmond and cameron are on good terms with one another in spite of being in very different positions in relation to scottish independence. perhaps cameron is helping salmond or vice versa either directly or indirectly with a goal in mind that is more philosophical and nuanced then we presently understand. if it is anything like the referendum on the issue of quebec independence in canada, this is a referendum and theme that can come up again in a few years time, if the first time the answer is a 'no'.. at least this is how the politicial system in quebec, a province in canada has fashioned it.. whether the public has the stomach for something like that is another matter!

the aries ingress suggests the public mood is not great, although it is softened some with the wide trine of the moon to jupiter here. that is based on the moons position in scorpio conjunct saturn.

jumping to the cancer ingress mercury is in a more dominant position, however it is retrograde. i have never been a fan of discounting a retrograde planet on the basis of it's being retrograde, but from my trad astro reading it seems that is exactly how many of these texts present it. jupiter although not as close to the midheaven is in a good position here.. the sun in cancer is ruled by the moon in aries in the 8th applying directly by square to jupiter.. following this square, it does a sextile to retro mercury. it has left an opposition to mars - essentially caught up in the square of jupiter /mars..i don't know if anyone is saying the referendum is a huge and unnecessary expense - captured in the mars/jupiter square perhaps with mars in the 2nd and moon ruled by the same mars.. either way, the moon in the 8th seems to suggest that some conflict in the public mood around this issue of independence that might broadside the yes side if indeed jupiter represents the yes side under salmond... perhaps there is some strong leader type as represented by the sun in cancer which will have undue influence on the public..

i am mostly thinking of the moon as a stand in for the general public here.

both charts are essentially day charts. the sun has greater significance if one emphasizes sect. in the cancer ingress the moon takes on greater significance in so far as it is the ruler of the sun. the pof conjunct sun is not considered that favourable as i understand conjunction of sun to pof.. the sun rules the 12th house in this chart.. i am not sure how or if the monarchy has a role to play in this chart, but my limited understanding of these things leads me to think of the monarchy as british, as opposed to scottish.. perhaps this is rolled into these charts somehow which again would be better interpreted by a person living in the country or area under focus..

i do think the position of venus on the ascendant of the aries and cancer ingress during the election especially interesting.. using the 2014 aries ingress to kiev with the station of mars on the ascendant degree certainly seems to suggest the importance of transits and stations to the rising degree.. this leads me to think the referendum process will be a smooth and favourable one.. it might favour the party in power more then the party of change too, but again - i sure wish others more talented at this would offer some insights!
Mark wrote: A lot of sources suggest a mutable chart lasts until the Libra ingress.

To recap:

-Aries ingress with cardinal sign rising: examine all 4 ingress charts
-Aries ingress with mutable sign rising: examine Aries and Libra ingress charts
-Aries ingress with fixed sign rising: Aries ingress chart only.

But I think some Perso-Arabic astrologers (Abu Ma'Shar?) were more flexible than that.


James_M wrote:
what are your thoughts on which planet is stronger in the charts - mercury or jupiter, or the idea if the ascendant represents the people and the ruler of the ascendant and the 10th happen to be both mercury? mercury is weak in the aries ingress chart, more so then in the cancer ingress chart as i read it. what do you take the application of the moon to the square of jupiter in the cancer ingress and wouldn't the moon be the obvious planet to symbolize the people generally?
I am trying to keep my head down for now on judging the referendum outcome. Once my article appears I will feel more free to share my take on how I see this and will be posting a lot here.

In the meantime what do you and others think?

Mark

54
Hello James,

Regarding lord of the year (I prefer the term Lord of the Revolution) there is some confusion on determining this. Especially when you look at 17th century sources like William Ramesey. However the consensus of older authorities is that it is the most essentially dignified planet in a chart is the Lord of the Revolution.

They looked at house placement, dignity, aspects, etc. They would often look for the chart Almuten based on all dignities. Practically, though Lilly's method of determining the lord of the geniture seems rather similar. He considered both essential and accidental dignity to calculate this. Btw some sources look at planetary hour rulers too.

Its true that local knowledge does help but astrological skill and knowledge is more crucial as I see it. I am well aware that a good crop of American astrologers get wrong the outcome of their own Presidential election on a fairly regular basis.

I have also come to what as I see as a divinatory view of mundane astrology. Having poured over so many charts now I recognise that the symbolism can legitimately be read different ways. Ultimately, a few key charts indicators are what resonate with our gut instincts. But are we personally attuned enough to the geist (or daimon) to tap into these larger collective cycles? Moreover, are we spiritually worthy enough as individuals to be a vessel prognosticating collective destiny? It is a question I increasingly ask myself.

You seem a bit confused on the origins of the British monarchy. So just to clarify. Its actually as much Scottish as English. When Elizabeth I died childless her successor was James VI of Scotland. He became James I of England. He was actually the son of Mary Queen of Scots. This began the so called Union of Crowns in 1603.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Crowns

So Scotland shared the same monarch as England for over 100 years before it politically united with England in 1707.

If Scotland became an independent nation again our current Queen Elizabeth would still be the Queen there. However, Scotland would return to being a separate kingdom or realm ( like Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc) rather than part of the current Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as at present.

So your essentially correct that this vote does have a direct impact for the fate of the monarchy in Britain. Not least that the name of the kingdom would need to change and her favoured royal retreat at Balmoral in the Scottish Highlands would be in a different country!

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Sun May 18, 2014 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

55
hi mark,

yes there is a use of terms like 'lord of the year' which can imply a few different things. i was using the term as used in dykes book that is the translation for what masha'allah used, but i know what you mean as it conflicts with some of those other arabic-persian sources who use the term lord of the year, for the profection lord..

thanks for the additional information as well.. some of it is actually quite philosophical. if one believes in more of a divinatory approach to astrology, then what you say and what you ponder is quite relevant too.. all the best on your seminar tomorrow..

56
i thought i would look at the uk chart 1801 dec 31st version for 0 am.. alexander salmonds birthdate is the same day.. thus, when looking at the solar return for either chart, there are a few similarities.. the big difference would be in the angles.. regarding the angles in the solar return charts for both - they happen to switch out the same place as the angles in the natal charts for either which is interesting..

i note the saturn square neptune aspect in the uk's chart which is where saturn happens to be transiting at present. also the midheaven uranus midpoint is at 20 leo which is right about where saturn is on sept 18th, aside from it's close proximity to this same saturn/neptune square.. all of that sort of speaks to me of a separation of sorts..

there are also some interesting overlaps in the 1801 uk chart with the aries ingress chart that some might enjoy looking at.

57
here is an overview on alexandar salmonds chart minus a discussion on primary directions which i haven't made any conclusion on yet.. i shared this about a week ago and am sharing it here now..

""he has a 'successful' politicians chart - good hindsight astrology in action, lol.

the water element is pronounced in his chart. both jupiter and saturn are transiting in the same signs they are in the natal chart. they are trine one another in the natal. the rising degree of the start of voting on sept 18th 7am is 25 virgo - opposite his natal moon. the rising degree at the end of voting 10pm is 26 cancer, the degree of natal jupiter. moon and jupiter in his chart is trine. that is moon applying to jupiter in his natal chart as well.

transit data

i think transit moon in cancer favours him strongly for the above reasons and that t moon is applying to his natal jupiter. t jupiter is applying to his ascendant which is also a big factor pointing to his happiness which i take it is connected to what happens at this time. t venus is also positioned very favourably sept 18th in connection with his natal chart. t mars at 2 sag does not seem to hit anything strongly back to his natal chart. actually 2 sag is applying to the sun/uranus and sun/jupiter midpoint by hard aspect - which i interpret as favourable. saturn is essentially doing a return at the time of this election. it is positioned favourably - solar 11th house -(group politics with a vision?) rules his cap sun/mercury and 7th/8th houses. the saturn conjunct venus in scorpio is interesting and is one possible area where something might come out at the last minute to throw it the wrong way for him. i say this mostly as i note transit of pluto in the vicinity of his sun/mercury, which is replicated in the solar return chart by the mercury/pluto conjunction in square to mars. t pluto is also square the venus/pluto midpoint at 11 libra which is where mars is in the sr chart. i am not sure what all that means, but it puts pluto (and mercury) in focus in a particular way. politics can be dirty sport for many! mercury also rules his 12th and 3rd house - so something that i wonder about because of the pluto transit and solar return data. transit jupiter at 13 leo is on the mars/sun midpoint and the midheaven/mercury midpoint - all good.. the jupiter/pluto midpoint is at 11 leo 42 as well - which is a midpoint which suggests great success. as sept rolls around i suspect jupiter applying to this midpoint really brings a positive energy with it.

solar return dec 31/ 2013

i think this chart screams success for a number of reasons.. jupiter on the midpoint in cancer, sun opp in cap. mars in opp to uranus also both on the ascendant/descendant angle. all these planets, excepting the sun are in an angle in his natal chart. i think they are strong in his natal chart for the potential good of the chart and they are found mostly on angles in the solar return chart. the mars/pluto square is at 11 cardinal which is where his sun/mercury is. elections and party leaders are under a lot of stress during a run like this. i don't make that big of a deal out of pluto, but it is interesting to a degree for the same reasons i cited in the transit overview. assuming it is a dumb note in the chart here - it is my only question of concern.. sr venus 45 midheaven degree - positive indicator. moon at 18 sag - square his natal mars? since mars and moon are tied in the natal chart so closely - i don't view this as negative or enough of a negative to register much. i mostly see strong success here bouncing between the natal and sr13 chart.

profection data to sept 18/14

pf jupiter conjunction ascendant. pf moon/mars conjunct midheaven. pf neptune square ascendant. essentially the chart is back to square one close to the time of this election which i think bodes favourably overall.. the profected lord of the year would be mercury, but depending on you read on profections - it would transfer to the moon sometime before this date of sept 18th/14.. mercury is on an angle in the natal chart - under the sun's beams, but otherwise relatively strong on an angle conjunct sun. i would place more emphasis on moons position in relation to the profection data.. a bit of a superficial read on the profected data i suppose!

solar arc directions

in order of closeness - sa ascendant opp natal mars. sa midheaven trine mercury(60 midheaven). the whole chart is essentially 60 the natal chart - and this is the problem with solar arc directions in some respects. sa saturn conjunct descendant. usually the primary directions are replicated in reverse - pd descendant directed to saturn here or pd ascendant opp saturn.. i see saturn functioning well in this chart as i do mars and mercury.. i am not sure why i say this, but it is my gut impression on the chart. the weak spot on the chart for me is the saturn/venus conjunction and perhaps how it might tie in with the 8th solar house position of pluto - a similar theme.. i just don't see saturn doing harm here for some unknown reason. sa sun is applying to the uranus/jupiter conjunction - would fit with his increased recognition and the unorthodox idea of the leader of a 'new'/old country!!! sa sun is applying 2 degrees to natal midheaven degree as well - more sextiles for the 60 year data to churn over.. sa moon is exactly opp natal venus - sometimes the folks with venus in scorpio seem to inherit something from the world they live in and perhaps his inheritance here is the leadership of a dream that has been brewing in the scottish psyche for 100's or years.. i think he inherits the mantle of leader of a new country - mostly sa sun 135 uranus/jupiter rising, but sa moon opp natal venus is a positive too - the moon and venus are favourably set to one another in the natal..

minor progs

neptune/jupiter conjunct ascendant in scorpio. mp midheaven conjunct mp pluto both - conjunct natal pluto. i am skipping over data here, but mars at 11 leo - on the natal jupiter/pluto, as is the ascendant degree of 10 scorpio 20 - close enough.. overall i still see positives here.

it is hard for me not to see a positive outcome in alexander salmonds chart in all of this! i think it means more then him gaining recognition, but that is the hard thing to tell - is it just increased success, but no independence, or is it increased success with independence? i think it is the later based off my read on his chart.."