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What does it mean to be within orb?

 
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Bulletbobb



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 121
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:37 pm    Post subject: What does it mean to be within orb? Reply with quote

Could someone please explain to me what it means to be within orb of an aspect?

I don't mean in a numerical sense: that's easy enough to understand. By way of an example, if we had in a birth chart Sun conjunct Mars with an orb of two degrees, we would say, perhaps, that the person was very energetic. At six degrees we might say he was more energetic than average, and at 12 degrees we probably wouldn't mention the aspect. But what would be the equivalent in a horary chart? I know that, all other things being equal, the closer the planets are the sooner the event will manifest, but if that's the case then there is no point in talking about orbs.

I have most of the horary books, and they all talk about orbs in the same way as as a book on natal astrology, but they never relate the idea to horary.

The only explanation I can come up with is that if the two planets are within orbs it means that the effects of the aspect are being felt by the persons involved, altho the main event, so to speak, hasn't taken place yet. If it's a separating aspect it would suggest an event in the past, but one where the effects are still felt and are having an influence on the situation which gave rise to the question. An aspect which is out of any reasonable orb would suggest an event which is far enough down the road that the querant has no awareness of it as yet.

If something like the above isn't the case then one wonders what meaning the concept of orb has in horary. I know that March and McEvers discard the concept entirely.

Input will be greatly appreciated.

Bob
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If something like the above isn't the case then one wonders what meaning the concept of orb has in horary. I know that March and McEvers discard the concept entirely.


I don't know anything about March and McEvers opinions on horary astrology, but I would sort of agree with this one. In traditional natal astrology, at least the way I'm taught, aspects qualify the nature of the planet under review. If' were looking at Mars in a nativity and it is square Saturn, then we are looking at a severe Mars, etc. Horary doesn't use aspects that way. If we are looking for a lost object and Mars is the significator, it really doesn't matter very much if Mars is square Saturn or trine Venus, it is still the same lost object, although such an aspect might help us choose between two potential significators.

If the question pertains to a relationship and Mars rules the 7th and is square Saturn it may provide us with a physical description of the quesited or it may tell us something about his character. However, if we are asked if he and she will unite, the aspect to Mars is probably irrelevant to the outcome. (Unless the astrologer tries to effect the outcome by asking, "Why do you want to get together with this guy? He's only going to beat you." Not recommended).

Rule of thumb: applying aspects with any "orb" signify events to come, separating aspects signify events that have past. The distance may tell us how long ago or how long we have to wait. That's about it in most cases, I'm sure there are exceptions.

Tom
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Bulletbobb



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 121
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom:

Thanks for the response.

If orbs as such have no relevance in horary, then one has to wonder why it is that virtually every horary book has a list of which orb to allow for what aspect? Makes one wonder if the authors' are just copying something they read somewhere, without ever having considered whether there is any validity to the concept.

For example, with regards to the matter of out of sign aspects, it's often said that if the two planets are within orb the aspect is allowed. But if there are no orbs as such in horary then I would think it follows that out of sign aspects are not allowed.

Makes one wonder how many other teachings are being repeated over and over without anyone ever stopping to consider whether there is any evidence to support them.

Bob
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This matter of orbs, and aspects applying within or over signs seems to be dominating a lot of forum discussions lately. I consider orbs to be very important; they show the aspects that are within manifestation. An applying aspect which is outside of orb only shows a latent potential that might or might not be capable of expression at some future point, depending upon the chart and how the querent reacts. But they are not capable of demonstrating an effect at this moment in time. (So essentially I’d agree with the explanation you used in your first post). Lilly frequently refers to the Moon as ‘void’ when it is out of orb of aspect even though it will later leave its void status and complete a future aspect within the same sign. But when it is void (ie., out of orb) he interprets it as doing nothing, or a period of emptiness or inactivity. The Moon out of orb has a greater sense of being empty because one of the Moon’s functions is to carry virtue from one planet and deliver it to another. With the more superior planets, there is often more a sense of being free to act independently without acknowledging the influence (assistance or interference) of other planets, although the feeling of doing nothing immediate or vital remains. So to me there is a big difference in how I would interpret Jupiter, say, receiving an application from Mercury which is within orb, to how I would interpret it if that aspect will apply and perfect before a sign change but is presently out of orb. And the latter I would ignore if perfection occurred out of the current sign (or read it as only showing a fear or promise that has no power to manifest), whereas I would allow to the former to continue in relevance even if the perfection occurred over a sign boundary (providing it wasn’t interrupted, and providing some interpretive significance was given to the planets rolling out of the current sign) because the planets are already ‘locked’ into each other.

There is always an essence of fluidity in horary (and other traditional techniques), looking to past and future potentials, but in other ways the chart becomes freeze-framed to the question in the same way that a natal chart is freeze-framed to a birth (for example, house cusps remain fixed and planets within 5 degrees of a house cusp operate on the nearest house even though in astronomical reality they may me moving away from that house, beyond the 5 degree limit). In the same way a planet outside of combustion at the time of the question is interpreted differently to one that is outside of the limits but moving towards that state. Both need to be considered, because both are capable of interpretative significance, but there is a big difference in one describing the current state of events and the other describing an event which has potential to bring damage in the future but which may be manipulated to bring its most positive or least damaging effects.

Many of the horary books currently on the market were written at a time when the matter of orbs in traditional horary hadn’t been fully explored. I was taught to consider all of the aspects that applied within one sign, regardless of orb, and not to allow an aspect that crossed a sign-threshold. This was on a course that was supposed to be centred upon Lilly’s technique – yet Lilly did not take this approach, as you realise when you work through his example judgements. I also recently went through a great many of my past judgements where I’d taken this approach – it hardly mattered because the aspects that were most descriptive and most relevant to the judgement were only those that were in orb.
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Bulletbobb



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tom and Deb for your input, and my apologies for this tardy response. Pressing though far less interesting matters demanded my attention over the past few days.

Bob
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Astraea



Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 347
Location: Colorado, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Many of the horary books currently on the market were written at a time when the matter of orbs in traditional horary hadn’t been fully explored.

This raises an excellent point. I heard Robert Hand speak at a conference in 2000, and at that time he said that the translations then underway would revolutionize our understanding of horary (and traditional astrology in general). I heard these words with gratitude mixed with a certain amount of dismay, wondering how much we will need to unlearn as time goes by, and how much credence we should give to our present-day understandings.
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