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Explosion in Government Quarters, Oslo
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Stellarium



Joined: 26 May 2010
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this thread on 9/11/01 (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5887&sid=0a2682c830aabc9175da97dd490009ee), I commented on the things that I would look out for in an Ingress figure if some major negative event was likely to occur. This is what I wrote:

*2 main things:
1. Angular malefics, especially if one tightly conjunct or opposed the rising degree. Saturn is more malefic than Mars. Uranus counts. For example, Uranus on the rising degree in the ingress figure preceding the Nagasaki nuclear bombing). Another example is Saturn/Cancer exactly on the rising degree of the 2004 Capricorn ingress in Thailand preceding the December 26th Indian Ocean Tsunami.

2. Moon in a malefic configuration. Easiest to spot if separating from one malefic and applying to the other - orb must be tight (the tighter the orb, the more likely some significant negative event will occur). An example: See the Aries ingrees for Los Angeles in 1992 preceding the rioting where Moon separates from Saturn and tightly applies to Mars. Saturn and Mars were angular (in the rising sign, Aquarius) in the same ingress in New York (1993 WTC bombing happened under this ingress). Planet can also be accidental malefic - see Venus/Aries/12th in the chart below.


Here is the Aries ingress for Oslo:


Condition 1 is occurs as Uranus is conjunct the Sun 1 degree from the IC. Also, Mars/Pisces is considered angular as it is in the same sign as the IC - this is something I underestimated in my first post (which was posted while the Utoya island attack was probably still going on). Most fatalities occured on the Island, at the waters edge or in the water - this is Mars/Pisces.

Condition 2 occurs - Moon/Libra separates from Saturn in 12th and applies within a degree to Mercury/Aries/6th - ruling the 8th, without doubt an accidental malefic. Mercury is also a significator for the youth, 6th house is the labour classes - Labour party youth.
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
Like Mark I don’t feel comfortable with astrological delineation so short after this disaster, however one comment I’d like to make is that, although this surely is a mundane event, I think that special emphasis should be laid on the natal chart of the assassin.


It's a pity we don't have the birth time. I have another birth chart (a serial killer) with whom I would compare this one.


Quote:
However the 16 June lunar eclipse appears to have some significance. I saw the eclipse and mentioned it, and a possible astrological significance for the regions where it occurred at the horizon, a while ago. Mars and Node were close to the eclipse point. Perhaps he has an angle on the eclipse point or square to it, which would make the connection to the mundane point an perhaps the progressed Sun (in end of Pisces).


I partially agree with you, but not 100%.

First of all solar eclipse is stronger than Moon one. Cardano says in his comment to Ptolemy: "On the other hand the Moon, because she indicates months cannot signify calamities."

Moreover if you cast the chart, the significant Light is the Sun near the Descendant, because it is above the horizon while the Moon is below. So according the usual rule, the effects will be late.

Anyway I agree that this Moon eclipse can activate some points of the last January Solar eclipse and in the natal chart.

In every case the transiting Mars (which was on the SE Ascendant ) opposite the LE Moon is interesting, I should admit Smile

margherita
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz Madrigal wrote:
Quote:
Norwegians are not good at maths.


I guess you were attempting to inject some humour there but in the current climate it seems ill advised. I would ask all members to exercise special sensitivity here considerating the deeply tragic subject of this thread.

Mark
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anders Behring Breivik

Born 13.02.1979, Oslo.
The chart provided is not based on accurate birthdata. But rather than calculate a Sunrise chart, in view of what has been commited, I wanted to examine the chart from the perspective of the Sun on the cusp of the 8th house. We can discuss whether this approach has merit, but at least it is startingpoint.



By placing the Sun on the cusp of the 8th house, Leo is on the ascendant and the Sun becomes the Lord of the 1st house. The Moon becomes ruler of the 12th house, associated with mental conditions, assasinations and also imprisonment (hidden places/hidden enemies), and is conjunct Saturn, lord of the 8th house on the cusp of the 3rd house. Breivik expresses his views in a political manifest. There is the reception between Mercury, lord of the 3rd in the 8th, and Saturn, lord of the 8th in the 3rd house.

The luminaries are in signs of a human figure, but here the combination of Vrigo and Aquarius may reflect a reasoning with lack of empaphy. Mars, Lord of the Midheaven, is combust and joined to the Sun, lord of the ascendant, on the cusp of the 8th house. Mars, lord of the 10th, is square Uranus in violent signs. Uranus is on the cusp of 5th house of children. The entry of transit Uranus into Aries would introduce a period of instability, change and unpredictable action, but the tension is more thoroughly expressed by transit Pluto who is in a tight square with the Midheavan.
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Eddy



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margherita wrote:
It's a pity we don't have the birth time. I have another birth chart (a serial killer) with whom I would compare this one.
It’s a really difficult subject. The man is not a typical serial killer. The killing was political but no politician was hurt. However many of today’s Norwegian politicians of the social democrats had joined the camps and meetings on the island. Obviously some of the killed youths on the island thus were meant to be future politicians. This makes the massacre much worse, like killing plants before they flower and spread seed.

Quote:
I partially agree with you, but not 100%. First of all solar eclipse is stronger than Moon one. Cardano says in his comment to Ptolemy: "On the other hand the Moon, because she indicates months cannot signify calamities."
Although I realise the risk of hindsight interpretation with symbolism, it seems that this lunar eclipse could be very relevant in this case. With the 15 June eclipsed Moon on the ascendant, you get two symbols of young age in one time. The recent Mars over the Sun’s position of the Lunar eclipse chart could symbolise the bombs in the political centre of the capital, both as heart’s of a country. And the Mars opposite the Moon position indicating the massacre on the island. But being an eternal doubter I must say that I never could have predicted this.

Perhaps there is a solar eclipse superior to this lunar eclipse. But in that case a solar eclipse might rather indicate the rise of the extreme right and populism. But which one? This is difficult because this has been a very slow process. Where is the beginning? The developments of populism after 9/11? Or earlier, the genocide of Muslims in former Yugoslavia? First Gulf War? The end of the Cold War? Delineating the course of history and cause and effects seems easier to do by observing political developments than by astrology. Mundane astrology is really difficult.

I just remembered another thread about the remarkable 1 June2011 Solar eclipse as a midnight Sun: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6181 In the last post I speculated on events in North Russia near Archangelsk, however I know of nothing having happened there. But the eclipse was on the horizon over the northern part of Norway. The ecliptical point of eclipse (which I use instead of the moment of maximum eclipse) was on 11°02’ Gemini. I compared this with Breivik’s birthday chart and found Saturn in Virgo in a close square to the eclipse. But Saturn is not so much of a personal planet. His natal Moon however, was close and adjusting the time to 15:36 (Universal Time) places the Moon on 11°02’ Virgo, exact square to that eclipse. Of course this is adjusting an alleged birth-time to an eclipse so I tested some verification with directed angles. With the Astrodienst chart calculators I get MC 29°55’ Aries and Asc 21°35’ Leo. Directing the angles 128 (4*32 years) clock minutes which roughly corresponds with Ptolemy key of 1° the directed Ascendant reaches 11°18’ Virgo, so quite a thing if it was the correct birth time. But how to be sure about this? Furthermore the progressed Sun reaches 26 Pisces and no significant aspect. The last things were square to natal Neptune in 20 Sagittarius and conjunct South Node in 18 Pisces, but this was some 6 and 8 years ago. I read that he has been preparing his 1500 pages work since 9 years so at least we should look for older and long term issues which lead to this. With the end of Leo Ascendant the Descendant is in the Mars, Sun, Mercury stellium, through which Neptune transited the last few years. Primary directed MC in end of Taurus was square to the stellium. I also looked at the 4 January 2011 eclipse, a thread on this: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5875 . This is another eclipse which occurred on the horizon. Your view on the stronger significance of Solar eclipses gets support from these positions, Margherita. It’s position 13°39’ Capricorn however is only close to natal Venus at 9 Capricorn. Saturn was in April close to square this point and will be again in August.

I realise that this latter part on the birth time is very speculative, and could be all wrong even though the primary directed Ascendant would nicely fit with that corrected moon in relation to the 1 july eclipse. Perhaps the birth time will be known within a few years.
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
I realise that this latter part on the birth time is very speculative, and could be all wrong even though the primary directed Ascendant would nicely fit with that corrected moon in relation to the 1 july eclipse.

I realize you wre probably refering to something else, but it you take the chart I proposed above and direct the ascendant according to Solar arc, then the directed ascendant is 10VI32, which is very much in contact with the radix Moon and Saturn, rulers of 12th and 8th..
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Excuse me! The police arrived at Utöya where there was utter chaos. Early estimates of 10 dead did not correctly reflect the gravity of the situation.


My apologies, Andrew, it was a throwaway remark due to being slightly puzzled at such a miscalculation, I think the Norwegian police have been otherwise exemplary in the way they have responded.
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Bevan wrote:
Eddy wrote:
I realise that this latter part on the birth time is very speculative, and could be all wrong even though the primary directed Ascendant would nicely fit with that corrected moon in relation to the 1 july eclipse.

I realize you wre probably refering to something else, but it you take the chart I proposed above and direct the ascendant according to Solar arc, then the directed ascendant is 10VI32, which is very much in contact with the radix Moon and Saturn, rulers of 12th and 8th..


Thanks for having posted the birthchart, Andrew.

I have the idea this man is a paranoid and I would check a little his chart. I cannot help noticing the Lights with malefics and I would be very interested in seeing how the Moon flows from planet to planet.

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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
I cannot help noticing the Lights with malefics

This is a very powerful observation!
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re. the use of Sabians v Fixed Stars.



A DAUGHTER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION

KEYNOTE: The prestige and conservatism of a long-maintained heritage.

An example of what occurs when the individual chooses a path which totally embodies and glorifies tradition, a path which ends in a GLORIFICATION OF THE PAST.

The will and ability to maintain a social supremacy based on thoroughly established tradition.
___*When positive, the degree is an infectious pride in leadership through which a group is able to act as a unit, and when negative, the ultimate betrayal of selfhood by a false assumption of superiority.[/quote]


I think that says it all really, it neatly encapsulates the socio-cultural and political views held by the perpetrator (Sun). Far too many people take the initial symbolism too literally but in essence it simply describes someone who is a member of a small group espousing old fashioned values...the fact that the Sun is very debilitated astrologically underlines the negative symbolism here.


I simply cannot find that clarity within the fixed stars.
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Bevan wrote:
margherita wrote:
I cannot help noticing the Lights with malefics

This is a very powerful observation!


I have to say once again that whilst totally agreeing with Margherita re. malefics in sharp contrast the fixed stars for both the proposed lights are wholly fortunate!!!
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The recent Mars over the Sun’s position of the Lunar eclipse chart could symbolise the bombs in the political centre of the capital, both as heart’s of a country. And the Mars opposite the Moon position indicating the massacre on the island.



A very interesting interpretation of the June 15th lunar eclipse.
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a bit confusing with the luminaries in humane signs, but then the maliciousness is expressed upon humanity, which brings me back to Margherita's observation on the roles played on part of the infortunes. The Sun is in is detriment and already weakened. The Moon is in an awkward state in Virgo since the influence of Mercury, by disposition, corrupts the Moon.

A picture from yesterday's Rose Parade in Oslo that gatehered 200.000 people.



Source: Aftenposten

I am not much into the Sabian symbols, Daz, but the discription you provided is striking. What is the source you are refering to? Do you not think that the essential state of the planets and configuration with the fortunes/infortunes plays ahead of the fixed stars in a nativity?

Picture series: VG, Aftenposten
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
Quote:
It’s a really difficult subject. The man is not a typical serial killer. The killing was political but no politician was hurt. However many of today’s Norwegian politicians of the social democrats had joined the camps and meetings on the island. Obviously some of the killed youths on the island thus were meant to be future politicians. This makes the massacre much worse, like killing plants before they flower and spread seed.


I agree. Its not typical of a serial killer who usually murders individually. Serial killers also seldom have an ideological motive. Its more often related to mental health and/or sexual abnormality. Equally, though its not like the classic spree killers who normally kill without much pre-planning or ideological motivation. Its also different from assassins or terrorists who target one victim or group of prominent individuals.

A cold, calculating, mass murderer like Anders Behring Breivik who kills for perceived ideological grievances is thankfully a very rare phenomena. It takes a particular form of alienation from all feeling and sentiment to treat other human beings in this way. To me the charts of Nazis, right/left wing terrorists and ironically Jihadists come closest to this psychology. These killers see their murders as an attack or message targetted at the culture or group they deeply resent and indeed hate and perceive as a threat to their treasured values.

Looking for other natal examples I haven't had much joy finding timed data apart from Timothy Mcveigh. Like the charts of dictators there seems to be a strong over emphasis on fixity in many cases. In the charts I looked at most had Mars in a fixed sign.

Amorozi Nurhasyim. Convicted for Bali Bombing in 2002. Executed 2008.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amrozi_Nurhasyim

Mohammed Ajmal Kasab. The only surviving terrorist convicted for Mumbai terrorist attacks of November 26th 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_terrorist_attacks



Amon Goeth. Nazi war criminal convicted and executed by Polish authorities after WWII. Göth's actions at Płaszów Labor Camp became internationally known through his depiction by British actor Ralph Fiennes in the 1993 film, Schindler's List.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amon_G%C3%B6th



Mohammed Sidique Khan. Likely leader of the London Jihadi bombers of 07/07/2005. One of four men who detonated explosives in three trains on the London Underground and one bus in central London during the 7 July 2005 London bombing. 52 people were killed and over 700 wounded in the attacks.



Timothy Mcveigh. American terrorist convicted of committing the largest act of terrorism on American soil prior to 9/11 in the Oklahoma City bombing of 19th April 1995. The Oklahoma blast claimed 168 lives, including 19 children under the age of 6, and injured more than 680 people. Convicted and executed.



Tanweer Shezhad was one of four men who detonated explosives in three trains on the London Underground and one bus in central London during the 7 July 2005 London bombing. 52 people were killed and over 700 wounded in the attacks. Like all the four bombers he died in the attacks.



Theodore Kaczynski. American terrorist, called the Unabomber. He engaged in a campaign of mail bombing that spanned nearly 20 years, killing three people and injuring 23 others. He was finally taken into custody on April 3, 1996 after years of targeting various individuals.


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Last edited by Mark on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:51 pm; edited 11 times in total
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Eddy



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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Bevan wrote:
I realize you wre probably refering to something else, but it you take the chart I proposed above and direct the ascendant according to Solar arc, then the directed ascendant is 10VI32, which is very much in contact with the radix Moon and Saturn, rulers of 12th and 8th..
Although I don’t use Solar arcs myself it’s interesting to see that our results are the same with the significance of the moved Ascendant in relation to the Moon-Saturn conjunction. Did you (after looking for the relation of Sun and house VIII) ‘fine tune’ your proposed birth time with the Solar arc Ascendant to that conjunction Andrew? While ‘my’ directed MC doesn’t seem to indicate a lot, moving the MC from the chart set up by Andrew 32°, gives ca. 10° Taurus and in trine with Moon-Saturn and Venus. The remark of Breivik that he hadn’t expected that he could continue for so long time could indicate the relative ease he could commit this, the negative expression of a trine.

Margherita wrote:
the Lights with malefics
... is indeed significant. The Mars, Sun, Mercury stellium is quite isolated because of no further aspects with personal and classical planets, only with Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, sextile, square, trine respectively. Moon-Saturn conjunction is in trine with Venus. Maybe from these positions the risk of isolation can be indicated.

Although I don’t pay much attention at solar returns, the age of 32 years is interesting because at that age Venus and Mars take almost similar positions as in the natal. For a birth time of thos of Andrew’s and my suggestions the Moon gets a position of 21° à 22° Gemini. That’s where Mars was on Friday the 22nd. And rather close to the 24° Gemini Sun of the 15 June Lunar eclipse.

I don’t use Sabian symbols and only occasionally look at a handful of bright stars near the ecliptic, but in the natal chart there are no significant relations with fixed stars I think.

Just seeing Mark’s post appear, I’m not sure if insanity or mass murder and terrorism can be found in the natal chart. I remember of a mystery (who’s the murderer) chart in which, of all five choices, I chose a murder victim.... The natal chart I think must then be neutral at birth, with the natal points as ‘soft spots’, which when affected by directions, transits etc. become soft again. The circumstances and choices of the individual in those moments/periods determine the path that follows, therefore the future is created and adjusted all the time by the individual and/or by powers surpassing beyond the individual. I don’t think that real insanity can be found in a natal chart (or maybe perhaps only as a hereditary pattern). I think that Breivik’s Neptune transit over Mars, Sun, Mercury (and perhaps Descendant?) of a few years ago, could have made him sensitive for things like extremism on internet. We all have our weaknesses. When we are in a crowd and panic sudden breaks out, its very likely that we will run the same way as the crowd, especially when we are in a sensitive/weak period.
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