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Explosion in Government Quarters, Oslo
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
Quote:
but in the natal chart there are no significant relations with fixed stars I think.


With respect Eddy noone can state this without timed data giving us the angles of the chart and the exact position of the Moon. As we dont have this it remains impossible to know.

On that topic I see Daz Madrigal has been raising questions throughout the thread on the validity of fixed stars. I will need to time to pick that up later. There is a few misconceptions I want to clear up.

Your position on freewill/determinism in the nativity is well know to those who have read your comments on the philosophy forum. I am not a hard determinist either but if natal astrology cannot reveal any potentialities it has no real purpose.

Mark
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Eddy



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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Eddy wrote:
Quote:
but in the natal chart there are no significant relations with fixed stars I think.


With respect Eddy noone can state this without timed data giving us the angles of the chart and the exact position of the Moon. As we dont have this it remains impossible to know.
That's true, I was looking for conjunctions of planets with one of the brightest stars, not thinking of the angles, but didn't found any. Hence my conclusion. I was a bit unclear.

Quote:
Your position on freewill/determinism in the nativity is well know to those who have read your comments on the philosophy forum. I am not a hard determinist either but if natal astrology cannot reveal any potentialities it has no real purpose.
Well I wasn't thinking into that direction, nor intending to start a freewill/determinism discussion (when I do, it's only in the philosophical forum, in the other forums I remain technical) but what I had in mind was earlier discussions about charts of murderers like Ted Bundy and the difficulty to find a murderer's configurations in his chart. It seems he was a charming guy, and that he used that to seduce his victims. So in Breivik's chart the isolatedness issue can be traced I believe. It doesn't need to make one an assasin. Others go into a monastery. But I won't bring up this difficulty issue anymore, it's not of primary relevance in the discussion. Sorry for the change of the course.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject: Nodes and Neptune Reply with quote

If I had to summarise Brevik's speculative natal chart and Transits in one headline grabbing way, I would say "Karmic Nodes and Utopian Neptune".

PD
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margherita



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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


I am not a hard determinist either but if natal astrology cannot reveal any potentialities it has no real purpose.

Mark


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daz madrigal



Joined: 09 Jun 2006
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you not think that the essential state of the planets and configuration with the fortunes/infortunes plays ahead of the fixed stars in a nativity?


Yes I do but I still find it odd that there are no "unfortunate" stars highlighted in such an evil act such as occured in Norway. Granny Skot alluded to this in her post and as it baffled me also I thought I would bring up the subject as its not the first time this thought has occured to me when considering other charts. This is one of the most heinous slaughters in history yet malefic stars are notably absent.

Surely I am making a reasonable point here, Andrew!

I dont want to dwell too much on the speculative chart for Anders Breivik as it is speculative.

Quote:
What is the source you are refering to?



I use the original interpretation on sabians by Marc E. Jones. Rudhyar's modified version is not quite as good, in my opinion he has detracted rather than improved the interpretation by modernising it but it is commonly used and available here..

http://www.mindfire.ca/The%20Sabian%20Symbols/An%20Astrological%20Mandala%20-%20Contents.htm



Greg
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Eddy



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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I dont want to dwell too much on the speculative chart for Anders Breivik as it is speculative.
I believe it's still possible to do some useful study on a chart without houses.

There's another problem. According to the English Wikipedia, his birthplace is not Oslo, as mentioned in the Norwegian Wikipedia, but his birthplace is London. Either one must be wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Biography
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to turn to Wiki for basic information like dates and birth places, but now I only do that for historical figures and even then if there was a chance of discrepancy I wouldn't use Wiki particularly in a case like this. The guy had a Wiki page the day after the shootings, if not hours after. The English version gives two sources for a London birth, which is good, but the sources are only "newspaper" stories with no additional validation. In other words the reporters were told this information and repeated it as fact. To them it probably isn't important whether they get that right or not. We view this information differently.

One of them claims his father was a diplomat and in London at the time of his birth, but there is no additional information. In the case of a birthplace, it is far more important to know the location of the mother at the time than it is to note where the father was working. However, London is plausible, but not conclusive. It would probably be rated "C" data at best and this is just for the birthplace. Let's just be careful when so little is known about the data.

Thanks, Eddy, for your source. It is a start.
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Eddy



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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wikipedia is a tricky source. I saw that the sources were newspaper articles and assumed that the info on the London birth was from the interview. I somewhat filled in the blanks with assumptions, but that's not really the way it should be done. Perhaps later information wil give more facts. Problem with modern media is that newspapers copy each other's newsposts.

With that node so close at the Moon in the natal, I checked for some eclipses in the secondary progressions. One total solar in 7°29 Pisces at age 13 and one partial lunar in 22°42' Virgo at age 28.

A quick look didn't show significant contacts with natal planets (except perhaps Neptune from the Lunar eclipse), but maybe could contact an angle if the birthtime once might be sure.

Although I (partly out of wariness to find anything one wants) usually don't use progressed planets, Mars at 11°04' Pisces looks interesting as it's close to at least natal Saturn and perhaps the Moon.
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yuzuru



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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
Steven Birchfied, who lives in norway, told me that, regarding Anders Behring Breivik

Quote:
He was NOT born in London. His birth announcement appears in the Oslo paper "Aftenposten" the 15th of February 1979 on page 10 where it states specifically and with no doubt that he was born in Aker hospital (Oslo) on the 13th and gives his father and mother's names.

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Eddy



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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The English Wikipedia (to which I had linked to as 'source' of a London birth), now also has changed the birth place into Oslo.

Birth in an hospital might mean that his birth time was registered and could be revealed in some future day.

Thanks for the correction Yuzuru (and Steven).
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note that the New Moon set for Oslo has Pluto exactly on ASC. (UR sq naturally).

Also Saturn in 8th. Sad


PL-ASC-PF at 6 CAP

"An Archway Leading to Woods is Blocked by Logs"
- symbolises confusing circumstances that we dont fully understand/a dark mystery that we can only understand through complex analysis.

SA in 8th

"Children Blowing Soap Bubbles"
- symbolises the innocent freedom of youth and how transient and fragile this playful happiness is in todays world.

...chastening thoughts.







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Last edited by daz madrigal on Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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Michaelb



Joined: 21 Apr 2011
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi to All,
Norway's national day is celebrated May 17 (from 1814 when the law of the land was written). It is one of the oldest constitutions in the world. Wiki says it was inspired by 1789 French Revolution, U.S. Declaration of Independence and even Spanish Const of 1812. See link below. Please correct if any of above is incorrect.

The constitution with few amendments outlasted the Union with Sweden. Question, In 1905 did the nation reorganize itself based on new philosophies and thought - that would otherwise signal in the beginning of
a new order ???? and a new chart.

If there was no major change in the Identity of Norway 1905, could one say its Identity was only consolidated and not changed, agree, disagree or middle of the road, smile smile. So I ask, do Norwegian astrologers use or not the May 1814 charts?

Of the 1814 constitutional event day or days, Wike says it was approved adopted a day earlier May 16, then a final edit and signing took place May 18 ??

Mr. Andrew, do you have any idea about possible times for May 16, 17 and eventually 18. I understand this took place at today's Eidsvoll . I get conflicting long-latt info but it is located somewhere near 60N20 51, 11E15 03. A painting of The Constituent Assembly at Eidsvoll, 1814 on wike

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Norway

that may or not give a hint to time of day??? Is that building still standing, then the arc glare of the Sun into the room may show it to be early mid morning or later via a simple visit??? I don't mean that you go there, Andrew, smile smile

Either way so sorry Norway had to experience such an event.

Now for some astrology. I ran three charts using Septars for this event. Also three separate dates, May 16, 17 1814 and June 7 1905 and for latter, as I write this, I include a list of active transits to and from the time lords. That is, the planets ruling the signs that were rulers of time in the Septar charts along with natal positions.

I will present current Septar for 1905 chart in this post. Then time permitting go to the 1814 charts in another post. I took a time of 10.00 AM for the 1814 charts. Knowing how Scandinavians love to bask in the
spring Sun I figured they met early to get back outside and enjoy the warmth of that May Sun. At least it looks like the Sun is shinning on the painting I refer to above.

To help understand what I do with Septars, see topic USA 2007-2014. A few examples are found there.

For the current times using 1905 chart the 16th Septar is in force. It rules the period 2010 to 2017. Interesting that the Septar charts for May 16 17 also rule for same time period 2010 to 17. The Septar chart is dated 7 June 1920, 01:57:32. This is based on the natal for 1905 using LMT.



Taurus rises with Sag on the 8H. I had a difficult time spotting violence in this Septar. So I chose the 8H. Otherwise I would expect Mars rising or angular and in aspect to Nodes and Saturn. Mars becomes very interesting in the transits. Instead Mars is 12th to N.Node, Saturn is 12th to Mars and Saturn is 11th to Node. Or in the order of the signs from first planet to third or Node becomes Saturn to Mars to Node. That
does not stand out in my mind as being the typical aspect pattern for these three, or does it? Who knows, in our ever changing world perhaps it is a new indicator to violence when in successive houses.

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For lack of a sore thumb sticking out, the indicator I took, the 8H.

Taking 8H and ruler of 8H Sag/Jup, spinning the wheel I expect to see one or the other in the active places at time of event. The prime place 10H followed by 1st 7th 4th house. So here goes.

As we know, Sag, is always a revolting development waiting to happen. How then may the ruler of Sag, i.e., Jupiter become detrimental to the chart. Ruling 8H may be a good hint. Next would be determining the following, living or non living matters affected most.

On this web in article Introduction to Mundane Astrology we can read following re. 8H : The Eighth House - Public mortality, death-rate, the kinds of people who die. Death duties. Financial relations with foreign countries. The same article says this of 4H The people as contrasted with the monarch; the democracy as contrasted with the aristocracy END.

So we may take a guess he is more detrimental to living matters, people, via his house placement. Note I use whole sign houses so while the Meridian in Septar chart is in 3rd whole sign house, Cancer, I consider
all of Leo to be 4H.

Not living in Norway, admitting I have not followed political or mundane events there. So, a guess Jupiter is then kinder toward non living matters for these two houses. His ownership of 11H may give other hints to his effect on living or non living matters during this Septar charts term of rulership.

The Septar chart for period 2010 to 2017 gives Taurus rising. During that 7yr. period each sign house rules for 7 months. The movement I use goes in clockwise motion, also from Ta to Ar to Pi and so on.

I find the months by movement of Sun. Natal Sun for 1905 chart using Astrodienst gives 15 Ge 57´40. From there I move Sun forward 210 degrees at Solar return the year the Septar kicks in. So, June, Sun at 15 Ge, adding 210 degrees comes to 15 Cp 57 40. At that degree Cap, on 6 Jan 2011 at 16:32 Oslo, Aries took over from Taurus for the next 7 months. Thereafter moving current Sun another 210 degrees comes to 15 Le 57 40 or 8 Aug 2011 10:37:55 Oslo when Pisces takes over.

During the Aries period
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is when the event took place. 10H to Aries is Cap so I must divide the time more. During the Aries 7 month period I create a new division. I continuously move the Sun 17.5 degrees. This smaller division also gives date n time when a new sign house Sub Ruler takes over during Aries 7 Month period.

From Aries spin the wheel to Taurus. Aries to Taurus at 17.5 degrees for each sign house is 192.5 degree movement of the Sun. Eleven signs times 17.5 comes to 192.5, add remaining 17.5 of/to Taurus period is 210
degrees the completion of the Aries 7 month period.

To this point when Ta took over the third division - 17.5 degree division - it looks like this Ta Ar Ta.

First division Ta is the Ascendant sign for Septar chart. Ar is the division by 7 months or 210 degrees.

The third division, the Ta sub period in the Ar 7 month period is the division by 17.5 degrees.

Thereafter I break down the third division of 17.5 degrees to get a fourth division. The division is 1d27m29.9s per sign house. This comes to 17d29m48s so it is off by 12 seconds but is good enough - for me at least.

So at the Ta Ar Ta period that started 21 July 2011 15:30:15 there is no need to go further because the event took place on 22nd. But if interested the Ta Ar Ta Ar period started 23 July 2011 16:10:00 or day after the event.

Drawing up a chart for Ta Ar Ta is, 21 July 2011 15:30:15 Oslo with a calculated Asc 8Sc29m28s and for Sun the is most important degree of calculation is 28Cn27m40s In all calculations the Sun not any Asc degree
is most important.
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Ta then is on 7th but consider reading chart from Taurus 1H. This is same as Septar angles with Sag on 8H. For this chart, Jupiter, ruler of 8H in Septar chart is now angular in Taurus, the first house, an active place. So while Sag did not show up as 10H or other active place in this chart, its ruler did.

This does not feel as clear cut as previous examples I gave in topic USA 2007-2014. I also would say it would be very tough to make a prediction for this event beforehand. While not satisfied with result, one of the criteria I have determined to be important while experimenting with Septars was met. That is, either the Sign House or its ruler angular.

This example like others in topic USA 2007-2014 without use of transits directions and so forth.

The various charts calculated on Astrodienst.
Norway 7 June 1905 11.00 Am LMT Oslo Sun 15Ge57'40, Asc 8Vi48'16
16th Septar is solar return from 7 June 1920 01:57:32 based on data above using LMT Sun 15Ge57´40, Asc 9Ta32'´02
Aries 7 month period began 6 Jan 2011, 16:32:00 Oslo, Sun 15Cp57´40 remember Suns degree, not calculated Asc degree is most important so I do not list Asc degree. The chart is read from Aries as 1st. House.
Taurus 17.5 degree period began 21 July 2011 15:30:15 Oslo Sun 28Ca27´40 Up this point no need to go further, the rulers are TA/AR/TA

Now a look at transits. The teachings on transits hint the more active ones are to and from the time lords. In this example they would be VE and MA. Hereafter I will use double CAP abbreviation to show the TLs.

Event MA 21 Ge Conj. natal pl 21 Ge.
Event MA 21 Ge Trine Septar MA 21 Li
Event VE 22 Cn Sqr Septar MA 21 Li
Event VE 22 Cn Opp 7 Month Aries period MA 22 Cp
Event mo 22 Ar Opp Septar MA 21 Li
Event mo 22 Ar Sqr 7 Month Aries period MA 22 Cp
Event su 29 Cn Trine 7 Month Aries period VE 29 Sc
Event ju 07 Ta Opp natal MA 8 Sc

What sticks out that you would expect to..... Hope I made no typos above.
Hope this was not to confusing. Anyone here using time lord lords, preferably longer periods of time than profections, planetary or sign based for events like this? Michael
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daz madrigal



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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

16.57: The captain of the ferry sailing to and from the island, are told that a policeman is to be sailed over.

Approximately 17.10: The shooting starts at Utøya



Astrology for the start of Shootings at Utoya Island

At first glance the chart doesn't stand out as pointing to any dreadful event. I think we have to realise that merely the exactness of #Ura/#Plu square is enough to create extreme tension in all individuals with #Ura/#Plu powerful in their charts (and remember, both are retrograde). Anders Breivik had both #Ura sq #Sun#Mer#Mar and #Plu sq #Sun#Mer#Mar, his personal negativity made him the perfect candidate to unleash the diabolic force of these two major planets.

Mars/SN was the trigger.

At the time of shooting #Mar was just 4 degrees from the cusp of 8th house, traditionally the beginning of a planets influence by cusp. It is officially in the 8th house and will remain in the eighth throughout the shootings. Mars being ruler of 11H (other people's children).

#Mar 23 Gemini activates the Sabian Symbol, “Three fledglings,  in a nest high up in a tree"

Fledglings=Youth/Childhood. High up in a tree gives at least a feeling of protection, the birds are rather isolated with a sense of security away from danger. On the other hand though such isolation can cast them adrift from protection. The island so free from the cares of city life is also without the usual protections of city life ie. the police, emergency forces, etc...all of which have little access. The small feldglings in the nest are vulnerable & open to attack whilst the protective birds are busy away elsewhere.

The tiny birds indicate fresh ideas - perhaps rather elevated ones -- that will soon be ready to take flight. Many of these youngsters about to take flight carrying the hopes of a bright future for Norway. They signify the positive side of the symbolism..those talents or ideas that might take flight and make a difference in the world.

Anders Breivik is in my view also reflected in the symbolism. Both his father and his step-father had fled from the responsibility of nurturing him leaving Anders, sister Elisabeth and his alledgedly 'childlike' mother Wenche Behring together in the 'nest'. I believe the lack of both fathers to be a primary cause in his later misdeeds. For Breivik the negative symbolism applies..psychological witlessness and a false sense of release from responsibility.


I also feel that the star constellation, Corvus which Mars resides in gives an interesting mythology...maybe by putting all the blame on an innocent culprit - the snake/immigrant - he was absolving himself from his own childish flaws of character?

Quote:
The astrological influences of the constellation Corvus

Legend: Apollo gave a feast to Jupiter and requiring water sent the raven with a cup (Crater) to fetch some. On his way the raven noticed a fig tree, and, resting there until the figs became ripe, feasted himself upon them until, remembering his errand and fearing the anger of Apollo, he picked up a snake (Hydra) and on his return gave as an excuse that it had prevented him from filling the cup. Apollo ordained in punishment that the raven should never drink so long as figs were not ripe, and placed the raven (Corvus), cup (Crater) and snake (Hydra) in the heavens as a memorial. [Robson*, p.40.]





Greg
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Last edited by daz madrigal on Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz Madrigal wrote:
Quote:
Approximately 17.10: The shooting starts at Utøya


Could you post the link to a source for that please?

Thanks

Mark
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Michaelb



Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Posts: 68

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi to All
I present a May 17 1814 chart timed 10 AM. I chose 10 AM because I read somewhere that ceremony for 1905 chart began at 10 AM and what else I wrote in previous post.

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Below, the current Septar, no. 29 for the years 2010-2017 for a May 17, 1814 chart, 10AM LMT.

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Gemini rises with a threesome in the sign, one being Mars. Is that good enough to predict the mess we saw happen? Before the fact, considering the country and people, probably not. But with Mars ruling 6H might we have predicted Labour clash and strikes or something similar or tension involving immigrants?

Reading more on Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo

its mentions 25% of Oslo population are immigrants. What is often status of such people, servants ? underprivileged, labour classes, all 6H. There may be more to read in this chart in future but for now I move on.

Again I take the 8H, this time it is Cap with two occupants, Jupiter and Saturn, both retro. Both planets become significators. Eight sign house Cap, Jupiter and Saturn are significators. I then look for any one of these to arrive at one of the active places at time of event. So spinning the wheel in this sign based system I want to see Cap on the 10H, if not then Saturn ruler of Cap should be angular, finally Jupiter on angle.

Aries took over 7 month period 18 July 2011 20:07:30 this was timed by current Sun moving to 25Cn46'47 this puts Cap on 10H no need to go futher if only using two sign ruler system but I want to see Cap ruling the day of event.

To let the cat out the bag, that did not happen. Instead, Aquarius took over the daily movement 21 July 2011 at 21:28:59 when Sun reached 28Cn41'56. Aq the 11H. When Aq took over 21 July, Jupiter in Taurus in the 4H. That meets one of the criteria above. The division Ge/Ar/Ar/Aq

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Using a 16 May chart, the Septars 16/17 May are nearly identical, Aries took over 7 month period 17 July 2011 19:51:40. Aries 7 month chart below.
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Cap then took over the smallest division 22 July 2011 09:54:28 when Sun reached 29Cn11'35 Saturn in Libra, 10H from Cap.

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Michael
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