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Hi Nixx
Here you appear to be suggesting Valens's 'authority' ought to have been linked to the 4th, not the 3rd. So can you speculate as to why it was listed in the 3rd house in 1CE, for Valens at least?
No, Valens said the father was a topic of the 9th, and that can be differentiated from the father as one of the parents (the 4th). The 9th has another function.
He also said, with other Greek authors, that the 3rd was Dea, godess, and also the mother. Why? because she's 'the mistress of the household'. So she lays down the rules in the home, as opposed to laying down rules in the Polis (9th).
Ultimately the super-ego lays down the rules of conduct, albeit mitigated and infused by any societal boundaries or systems, such as the Law and its implementers.
Super-ego? No, its your daimon who does this. The 11th is the good daimon, the 12th the bad daimon, the 1st is YOUR daimon.

Your line of reasoning is way to modern for me :wink:
Your trying to reconstruct housemeanings from a field of knowledge that has nothing to do with the foundations of astrology.
This will lead you astray (as it did me).
Hermes

107
PFN,

Perhaps the Online Etymology Dictionary can help here.
Valens meaning for the 9th resonates with the way the word authority is used today, as I think you indicate. But the term is not in this list directly. These types of authority such as Gods, Kings, Astrologers, Oracles, Prophesies have, thankfully, less power in many parts of the world now.
It would not take too much imagination to interpret Kings in a modern sense if you cannot imagine the past. As for "thankfully" that it a matter of opinion. Mind you, If someone starts by looking up a word in a dictionary I would not take the post too seriously.

Try not to be so literal

Regards

Matthew

108
Mathew,

When you are seeking to probe into the functioning of a homo sapiens mind 2,000 years ago you need to penetrate into the language of the time. This tool shapes our thinking processes. So unless you consult a good dictionary you will likely go round in ever confusing circles. By all means check out this assertion with a Philosopher, Linguist, Psychologist, Anthropologist or Historian. Or even Robert Schmidt.

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Hermes,

Good, now we may be getting somewhere. In your mind father is the rule monger, as it were, found in the 9th and mother the put your clothes away sayer found in the 3rd.

My impression is you are personally fond of applying these ideas. Therefore I assume if someone is annoying mother at home and she is of a mind to kick them out, and/or the person is finding themselves with an ASBO and in the process incurring father?s wrath, you would be looking at this 3rd/9th axis.

Whereas today these - led astray moderns- are more inclined to cast their eyes towards the 4th/10th.

The concept of daemon suggests transgressing societies rules is more of a DNA, or esoteric, fate than a case of your parents not drumming in social mores sufficiently- i.e. developing ones super ego, or if you prefer conscience.

However this seems probable to me as in Valens time the idea of people being possessed by, or born with, good or bad spirits would have been more common.

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The Robert Schmidt article, "The Facets of Fate: The Rationale Underlying The Hellenistic System of Houses," The Mountain Astrologer Dec/Jan. 1999/2000 is on-line at:

http://issuu.com/vertacsy/docs/the-hell ... -system-of

Other articles that might interest y'all are: "Ancient Astrologers Didn't All Agree: Paradigms and Chart Lords," www.sevenstarsastrology.com/ancient-ast ... art-lords/

Joanne Conman, "The Egyptian Origins of Planetary Hypsomata," Discussions in Egyptology 64 (2006-2009). She dates decans to ca. 2000 BC.

One article on houses that I found really interesting was Otto Neugebauer, "Demotic Horoscopes," Journal of the American Oriental Society, 63 (1943): 115-127, available on JSTOR.

Archaeological finds sometimes give a different picture than the primary textual sources. The horoscopes in this article are from Hellenized Egypt and date from the first half of the first century AD.

The most complete horoscope from this collection itemizes the houses as follows:
1. The Ascendant
7.# The Descendant
10. The Lake of the Sky (MC)
4.* The Dwat (Egyptian underworld)
2. The House of the Provision of Life
3. The Part of the Brother
4.* The Part of the Father
5.* The Part of the Child
6. The Part of [name missing]
7.# The Part of Fate
8. The House of the Provision of Death
9. The Part of God
3. The House of the Goddess
11. Psais
12. The Evil Spirit

Neugebauer did not explain "Psais" but from what I can gather off the Net it was the Greek name for an Egyptian deity who determined a person's fate. This probably translates roughly into the "good daemon" or "good fortune." I note that the 4th and 7th houses are mentioned twice, with different meanings.

We seem to have here a blend of Greek and Egyptian ideas. The horoscopes are in script form, so it is hard to say what kind of house system was used, but each house was linked to just one sign, with planets noted when present. Interestingly, the degree of the moon is given, but not of the Ascendant.

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Waybread

Thanks for finding this article.
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Schmidt suggests 'Retribution' as a 4th topic or area of life was found only, by him/by then, in Valens. So perhaps Valens thinking here was atypical. However, when he goes into more detail about this house he addresses retribution. Suggesting, to me, if someone gets stuck in, or is a bit tardy (he uses the term tarry ) in leaving someone else?s house, or not creating a firm foundation themselves, then they could experience retribution. Conjures up the image of a squatter getting beaten up by a bailiff or being re-possessed because you painted the porch magnolia. The context of this is Schmidt?s talking about the 4th, at this time, being the topic of death. Is there then some kind of Christian idea here, along the lines of we are mortal sinners and we get our just deserts at death. After reading these 3 sentences about 10 times I had to admit defeat.

With 'Authority' and the 3rd he makes some points already in this discussion. For example, that the 3rd was linked to the person who lays out the rules in the house, mother or mistress.. He seems to offer some support for the idea the 3rd houses topics were at least marginally influenced by the Moon enjoying the 3rd. Yet in the footnotes finds fault with the notion the Joys influenced the topics. In the first list for the 3rd house/place, he puts in - authority (office and resources). . This doesn?t evoke images of the home today, and I ?m not aware mother?s had offices at home at this time. However he later mentions the Queen as also being this female authority. I assume a Queen may have had, and still does, an office of sorts and resources with it.

The article also addresses why community and friendship was put in the 9th. Here he suggests it was to do with the where and why of people meeting up, to worship or study, as opposed to the way we sometimes use friendship now to describe people we feel we can rely on, or whose company we enjoy. Although it could be argued if we meet people today at certain colleges or church these people may have similar interests and values so friendship, in the modern sense, may develop more easily.

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Thanks Waybred for finding the link to Schmidt's article. :'
Couldn't find it myself.
"For example, that the 3rd was linked to the person who lays out the rules in the house, mother or mistress..."
Hi Nixx, I don't suppose you mean the mistress as in a love affair I hope?
What's meant is the mistress of the househould. Nothing else is implied.
Hermes

113
Hi Nixx
The article also addresses why community and friendship was put in the 9th. Here he suggests it was to do with the where and why of people meeting up, to worship or study, as opposed to the way we sometimes use friendship now to describe people we feel we can rely on, or whose company we enjoy. Although it could be argued if we meet people today at certain colleges or church these people may have similar interests and values so friendship, in the modern sense, may develop more easily.
Again you try to associate or validate attributions of ancient times to your modern perception of what might be meant. You have to understand the astrological rationale behind it, not modern sociological or psychological explanations.

There is a very simple explanation why the 9th has to do with friends, as all the signs that have a familiair configuration with the rising Image, are associatied with persons the native is familiar with.
Hermes

114
Hermes,

Strictly speaking we need to understand the psychological and sociological rationales which shaped the metaphysical premises of Hellenistic Astrology. Lamentably we can?t, yet, exhume Plato and remodel the axons and dendrites. To make more sense of these ideas one must plough on using the academic conventions of our own day.

So,
I am 'familiar' with the comings and goings of my neighbour, yet she is not my friend. If you are now suggesting the ubiquitous friend - ship in the Valens list ought to be replaced by familiar here or there, or qualified in other ways, please expand.

We have:
3rd - friends
5th - friendship
7th- friendship
9th - place of friendship
11th - place of friends

Let?s suggest Valens is informed by his good friend Ptolemy that his passing acquaintance Plotinus may have stolen his Mars Bar at the last symposium. He nearly died (he?s diabetic). Where would Valens have looked to see if this was likely or unlikely to be true. How would Valens have supported Ptolemy (if applicable). Will Plotinus do this again, and if so when.

115
Hi Nixx,
Nixx wrote:Hermes,

Strictly speaking we need to understand the psychological and sociological rationales which shaped the metaphysical premises of Hellenistic Astrology. Lamentably we can?t, yet, exhume Plato and remodel the axons and dendrites. To make more sense of these ideas one must plough on using the academic conventions of our own day.
Why must we do this, and not look at the original texts through their own presuppositions? Would this not get us closer to what they were doing, rather than an image of it distorted by our modern and possibly alien conceptual framework?
Nixx wrote: So,
I am 'familiar' with the comings and goings of my neighbour, yet she is not my friend.
What do you mean by 'Friend'?
Gabe

116
GR,

Not just ''alien conceptual framework''. I would suggest Robert Schmidt would learn more about this construct through being transported to this epoch and spending a week with Valens, - tasting, touching, seeing, hearing, and smelling - than he would ploughing through another 50 texts with his 21st century shaped mind, and senses.

Lacking the experiential, or contextual, knowledge profoundly limits our ability to look at these texts through their presuppositions.

Friend, for me, means someone you can rely on, trust, whose values are similar and, as a bonus, you enjoy their company. The latter may be more relevant when you are younger

117
Nixx wrote:GR,
Not just ''alien conceptual framework''. I would suggest Robert Schmidt would learn more about this construct through being transported to this epoch and spending a week with Valens, - tasting, touching, seeing, hearing, and smelling - than he would ploughing through another 50 texts with his 21st century shaped mind, and senses.
While he is not, to my knowledge, in possession of a TARDIS :P, Robert Schmidt is probably the only person looking at these texts in the manner you would seem prefer, looking closely at the language and what it might reveal that a simple counting of translated words would not. Maybe it would behoove you to look at his more recent work, say, his recent work on the Antiochus text.
Nixx wrote: Lacking the experiential, or contextual, knowledge profoundly limits our ability to look at these texts through their presuppositions.
Impedes, prehaps, but I think you're saying that it is, in fact, not possible to do so. I disagree.
Nixx wrote: Friend, for me, means someone you can rely on, trust, whose values are similar and, as a bonus, you enjoy their company. The latter may be more relevant when you are younger
Does the context of where these friendships occur matter in their categorization or no and why?
Gabe