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using horary rules for reading a natal chart
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
To the best of my knowledge quite a few horary rules dont appear in traditional natal principles. For example the via combusta, early/late rising degrees or planetary hour rulers. The only medieval astrologer I have spotted using planetary hour rulers in natal delineation is Ibn Ezra.

Hour rulers and the via combusta are mentioned in the context of natal delineation in both ancient and medieval (Arabic) texts -- please excuse me for not being more specific, as I haven't the time right now to hunt up the references (although my memory suggests Firmicus and Masha'allah as two sources).

Of course some considerations and applications are more relevant to one branch of astrology than to others (or there wouldn't be different branches); for instance, I don't suppose anyone would suggest that a natal chart is somehow less valid for having a late degree rising. But my impression was that the original poster had less clear-cut examples in mind, such as the whole array of applications and separations with all their variations (translation, collection, prohibition, etc). And to me it is not at all clear that those were originally 'horary rules', although they are often considered such today. I believe they were meant for general principles, equally valid in natal, annual, horary and electional work. Certainly I treat them as such, and find them very useful.
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin wrote:

An example is when we do annual prediction. We simply don't do this in horary as it does not make sense to use annual prediction in horary but we do it in mundane and natal. We could say that the concept (annual prediction) is similar in both mundane and natal but the techniques are different viz. solar return for natal and ingress for mundane (however they still share a technique i.e. profection).


Because in effect mundane (if we intend Arab version) is derived from Greek natal astrology: "on the other hand an original contribution of Persian apotelesmatics first, and the of Arab one, the transfer of these and other words and methods too, from nativities doctrine to the universal apotelesmatics, through a mimetic process. These words belong to that branch of genethliac astrology, which Pingree liked to call continuous.." (Giuseppe Bezza, Ptolemy and Abu Ma‘shar: Saturn-Jupiter conjunctions among Ptolemy’s commentators) (I re-translated it from Italian version)

In my opinion there is no such a thing as different branches with different tools, in mundane as in natal astrology.
So I would consider if Moon for example has no aspects if I want to judge the ruler of a soul, and if Mercury and Moon are inconjunct but some planet collects their lights.

margherita
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handn



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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sandstone wrote:
handlin [sic!] - to your question - where and by whom - i don't have a specific person or example to offer..it is perhaps an over-generalization on my part to say i see this happening a lot.. i think it would be better for me to say i see certain techniques that i associate with horary being applied to read a natal chart and i want to know if folks here have any thoughts about this..


Hello again

I'm inclined to agree with you when you say that it is your associating of techniques with certain areas of astrology, rather than something intrinsic to astrology per se.

You said 'I see certain techniques.... being applied to read a natal chart' and I'm afraid I do have to ask again, 'where?' and 'by whom?', and I now want to add 'which techniques?'

You've said you haven't got examples, but have re-stated your claim that you've seen it being done.... I'm afraid that that does puzzle me somewhat!

Reading traditional texts -- and this forum too actually -- there is broad agreement in terms of how to assess a chart in itself. Differences in details and specifics, yes, but general agreement.

When people talk about 'branches of astrology' what they are referring to is really different areas of life where astrology is applied. Strictly speaking there are no branches of astrology, there are only various things to apply it to. This takes us to your statement about solar arc directions...

Quote:
i think using predictive techniques like solar arc directions on a horary chart is a bizarre concept, but maybe someone does it.. it would seem a horary chart is different then a natal chart and this is one technique that i doubt someone would apply to a horary chart.. maybe some here do though..


A chart is a chart is a chart. They're all the same. It's what charts are applied to that differs from one to the next.

It then follows by common sense (but it also used to be taught in astrology books and courses) that you form and pitch your judgements to the person/object/whatever that the chart is calculated for.

That's where the categories come in, but it's based on nature's pre-formed categories, and the process gives rise to the artificial appearance of categories in astrology. But the categories don't spring from astrology, they spring from its application to things that are different in kind, and it's those differences in kind which necessitate your varying of technique, determined by common sense not by astrological essential difference.

As well, I think your premises about what you see as 'rules' (are there 'rules' in astrology? I don't think so... methods yes, rules no) and also what you see as categories are causing you to see it in a particular -- and inaccurate -- way. And maybe setting up the idea that there can't be or shouldn't be any cross-over. If you rid yourself of the premise then you rid yourself of the dilemma. Is it okay to cross over? Yes, because there's nothing to cross over in the first place!

Astrology is astrology and a chart is a chart, but some humans love creating categories and rules where none naturally exist.

Regards

handn

PS On a general point that I've seen on this forum before -- and I must emphasize that I intend no offence to anyone by this..... I really do think that if someone can't come up with their own examples then I think that it's unfair to ask anyone else to come up with examples for them.

I realise that people enjoy starting topics purely for the sake of enjoying a discussion of astrology, however a thoughtful discussion of a point such as the one in this thread can take time and energy and if we can't (or worse -- won't!) take the lead in substantiating or refuting our own views I don't think we should be asking other people to do it for us.
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

handn wrote:
PS On a general point that I've seen on this forum before -- and I must emphasize that I intend no offence to anyone by this..... I really do think that if someone can't come up with their own examples then I think that it's unfair to ask anyone else to come up with examples for them.

I realise that people enjoy starting topics purely for the sake of enjoying a discussion of astrology, however a thoughtful discussion of a point such as the one in this thread can take time and energy and if we can't (or worse -- won't!) take the lead in substantiating or refuting our own views I don't think we should be asking other people to do it for us.


hear, hear

james
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi handn,

thanks for your forensic reply.. i was waiting for the punchline towards the end, and you didn't disappoint! i realize not all comments are considered relevant or equal and my ambiguity is worth discussing or not depending on your own interests in the topic at hand.. it is interesting to note the plurality of viewpoints however and for this i am grateful.

do you use void of course moon when reading a natal chart? i think this was an example i provided upstream.. do you think it matters that planets are at the end of a sign when reading a natal chart? do you think different techniques commonly associated with horary are valid for use in other areas of astrology, or would you prefer to blow down the distinctions and not answer to these general ideas that i am curious to hear peoples views on? feel free to continue to address my ambiguity, if that is what you wish to focus on.. cheers james
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Quote:
Hour rulers and the via combusta are mentioned in the context of natal delineation in both ancient and medieval (Arabic) texts -- please excuse me for not being more specific, as I haven't the time right now to hunt up the references (although my memory suggests Firmicus and Masha'allah as two sources).


If you have time later I would be really interested to see your sources for that to assess how representative they are. However, I should state I was thinking primarily of early modern astrology ie 17th century regarding how the considerations before judgement were used in horary versus natal astrology. For example in this period the void of course Moon doesn't seem to be applied to natal astrology. Interesting point on Firmicus. I will have a look to check out references you cite on planetary hours and via combusta. Even if there was no horary in this period (I still have my doubts but its too off topic) there was what they called in Greek Katarche which applied to electional astrology.

Martin wrote:
Quote:
I believe they were meant for general principles, equally valid in natal, annual, horary and electional work. Certainly I treat them as such, and find them very useful.


Interesting. I haven't confronted that point of view before. Certainly, some of the ideas seem quite generalised. For example the Moon in late degrees is generally negative in all sources. I haven't really looked at the history of considerations before judgement prior to Bonatti. I take it your view is that these did not evolve from Persian and Arabic sources specifically discussing horary? I haven't kept up with Benjamin Dykes latest translations and it would be interesting to see what he has to say on this.

I agree that Bonatti's more extensive list of considerations contains many factors that could be equally applied to nativities. Still, applying some of the considerations natally seems a bit of a stretch regarding some factors. For example how do you apply horary considerations to factors such as early/late degrees?

Benjamin Dykes suggests that the Persian and Arabic horary astrology utilised 'victors' or Almuten to assess planetary strength and that this technique crossed over to medieval natal astrology.

Margherita wrote:
Quote:
In my opinion there is no such a thing as different branches with different tools, in mundane as in natal astrology.


Well different techniques are used much more extensively in some branches than others. For example, in mundane astrology we make much more use of eclipses, pre-lunations, ingresses and comets. Indeed the ingress chart seems unique to mundane astrology. Plus going back to Ptolemy there was a recognition of the hierarchy of branches of astrology with mundane or collective considerations coming first. However, the astrology going on is the same. Its just the context that differs.

Mark
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some may call me an heretic, but I do use primary directions in horary, specially when I feel it is a long term question, and there is support of a good outcome in the chart, overall. Also, since horary is more a of lunar branch, which basically means that it is more mundane in nature, I do not see any problems to shift from the analogy 1 day = 1 year to 1 day = 1 month (which is the time the Moon takes to fulfill her cycle).

But what I really want to add to this discussion, is that I think some techniques can indeed be better suited to some branches because they may deal with longer ranging cycles and symbolisms; while others were developed because they are aimed at filling a gap. Still, even for these, I believe the rationale can be adapted, because symbolism tend to be very plural and rich, just like life is.

This filling the gap I speak of would be the case of ingress charts. They were likely developed because to have a "true" chart of the birth or foundation of a nation is not that easy, but for mundane considerations there was the need of a working frame nonetheless. So, some techniques spun out of pure necessity to have a symbolical frame to work on. Still, I do use ingress charts located to my city and compare them to my natal chart and those of my family, to see how well we fare in a given year, for the fate of a nation is that of it's population, and the fate of my city is linked to mine and that of my family bussiness as well.

When we talk about a void of course Moon in a horary, for example, we are looking at a matter, so we take the current sign of the Moon (although we can extrapolate to the next sign also, as says Sahl) to mean the full measure in time alloted to a given matter. In a natal chart, that will depend on the symbolical frame you are working, if you take a degree for a year, as in a primary direction, it would mean that the Moon has something close to 90º = 90 years to meet the light of a planet and deliver a promise, although we could arguably say that this promise is impaired due to the fact that the Moon did not aspect anyone in sign to begin with, in the radical chart. That is the same as saying that the aspects a planet does in sign in the radical chart are equivalent to a whole lifespan, and that the fate of a person is limited to the 30º of each sign where the planets are posited and can interact with each others through their lights. So, a Moon in the final degrees of a sign would quite probably be idle to some extent in the life of a native, if in the final degrees of any sign, because unable to translate light to anyone, as she is faster than all others.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:
Quote:
This filling the gap I speak of would be the case of ingress charts. They were likely developed because to have a "true" chart of the birth or foundation of a nation is not that easy, but for mundane considerations there was the need of a working frame nonetheless.


Ptolemy does state the ideal preference is to have the exact ascendant for the founding of a city (and by inference a country) but failing this he suggested the position of the Moon and failing this the Sun. However, all the hellenistic astrologers employed a directional system of linking countries to particular triplicities, signs and planets. This originated with the Babylonians.

As with so much we use today Ptolemy seems to be the earliest astrological author to discuss an ingress chart. Although in his time the exact ingress of the sun into a sign could not be reliably calculated to the minute so the syzygies of the sun and moon prior to the four quarters were used. It does seem the original use of ingress chart was more concerned with weather or meteorological phenomena. From what I have seen to date the Persian astrologers seem to have been the first to apply ingress charts for political , dynastic matters.

Quote:
''It seems more proper and natural to me, however, to employ the four starting-points for investigations which deal with the year, observing the syzygies of the sun and moon at new and full moon which most nearly precede them, and among these in particular the conjunctions at which eclipses take place, so that from the starting-point in Aries we may conjecture what the spring will be like,from that in Cancer the summer, from that in Libra the autumn, and from that in Capricorn the winter. For the sun creates the general qualities and conditions of the seasons, by means of which even those who totally ignorant of astrology can foretell the future.''
The Tetrabiblos, Claudius Ptolemy, Book II Chapter 10


Mark
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