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using horary rules for reading a natal chart
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: using horary rules for reading a natal chart Reply with quote

this is something i have noticed that seems to happen a lot. i am curious to know at what point using rules from horary were applied in a more general manner to read an astrology chart? anyone that has any thoughts on this, i would be curious to hear from... thanks.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perhaps it would help if i offered an example..

applying the idea of void of course moon to reading a natal chart would be an example... what do folks here think of this idea?
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thought, but probably would apply more in transits than in natal.

though there are some things that do apply, for instance the first house should describe the person, either in natal or horary.

But I'm not quite certain how you would apply VOC to a natal chart??? if the person exists they are obviously relevant???

Granny
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

granny_skot wrote:
Interesting thought, but probably would apply more in transits than in natal.

though there are some things that do apply, for instance the first house should describe the person, either in natal or horary.

But I'm not quite certain how you would apply VOC to a natal chart??? if the person exists they are obviously relevant???

Granny


I don't think that a Void-of-Course Moon would signify the person not existing but rather that whatever the Moon represents in the nativity would be retarded or delayed somehow. Although, from what I have read of Masha'allah, Void-of-Course Moon wasn't as big a deal in Horary as later astrologers made it to be. Again, it would signify delay but it wouldn't make the chart unreadable or anything like that.
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's how I use the Void In Course Moon in natal. I only work with traditional planets, so I don't know if this applies with the use of Uranus, Neptune & Pluto.


1) situations, life aspects signified by the Moon's rulership are impeded untill the next application of the Moon; signifies delays.

2) one vote among many that the person may lack direction in life [doesn't have a clear calling]. There's a mitigating factor to the lack of direction: if a benefic is angular, or if any planet [except Neptune] is close to the Mc, it cancels the effects of the Void Moon.


james


Last edited by James E. on Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the translation of light of the Moon in natal as well, since she is the fastest body. If two planets are inconjunct their meanings can not be activated in relation to one another early on, cause they are alien to each other. So either the Moon or Mercury would have to translate light. As Mercury is almost equal in speed to Venus and Sun, he seldom helps unless it is Saturn and Jupiter involved.

For example, Aries rising, Mars in Pisces and Venus in Aquarius. If the Moon is in Sagitarius, before the degree of Mars and Venus, she can take the light of Mars to Venus or of Venus to Mars (whichever comes first by degree).

The number of degrees will say how many years, since a sign = 30º = 30 years of life (that is one symbolical distance that can be taken, others are allowed, like 360º = a lifespan, each sign = 12 years, each sign Venus crosses = 8 years, each sign Mars crosses = 15 years, so on and so forth).
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi sandstone-- I don't practice horary astrology, but I understand that a lot of planetary rulerships of different objects and phenomena were developed for horary astrology. I use these in birth chart interpretations if the question seems relevant. For example, if someone wants to know if s/he would make a good surgeon, I would see what Mars is up to, as it rules surgeons and surgery. Ditto for soldiers and athletes.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the comments everyone.

waybread, i am not an authority on the history of astrology, but it is my understanding making a connection with planets and vocation for example with a highlighted mars predates horary astrology... perhaps some of the more erudite members here will bring me up to speed on this..

i am really trying to understand what the folks here think of taking rules designed for horary and applying them in other types of astrology.. in so far as void of course moon is a horary rule, the answers have been informative.. perhaps other examples of where rules for horary are applied in other avenues of astrology are available for discussion.. horary astrology is not something i am well versed in either..
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I for one am not clear on which rules (if any) were designed specifically for horary astrology, to the exclusion of other branches.
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Astraea



Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi sandstone. I can't remember where I first read this, but years ago - it must have been in the 1990s - the Danish astrologer, Christian Borup, published an essay in which he said that natal charts are essentially horaries: each of us is the answer to a question posed by the cosmos. The idea struck me like a thunderclap, and - while I can't claim to have worked out an entire theoretical model - I have viewed natal charts through that lens ever since. One can, for example, view relative planetary strengths, dignities and debilities in terms themes or needs presented by a meaningful universe at precisely the time and place of a person's birth. Almutens might be those planets which lead the charge in a person's development as the fulfillment of universal need. Applying aspects can be understood as engines for forward momentum, with separating aspects acting as supports or "thrust blocks." Approached in this way, the shift from a natal to a horary perspective is more one of orientation than technique. We might not be able to find historical pecedents for such a practice, but experimentation can be illuminating and rewarding.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that would make 2 of us martin.. on the other hand, are all rules for horary able to be applied directly to other areas of astrology, like mundane, natal and etc in your view?

edit - i think void of course is one example of a rule designed for horary that some use in other areas..
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sandstone,

I agree with Martin on the difficulties in pointing out the distinction of horary and natal in terms of history and also techniques. Early hellenistic astrologers seem to write on natal exclusively whereas the arabic and latin astrologers seem to write introductions intended for both horary and natal (and even mundane). There will definitely be overlaps of concepts and techniques among the branches of astrology but to say that all techniques that have been established for one branch can be easily used in another does not appeal to me (at least not without some modification).
An example is when we do annual prediction. We simply don't do this in horary as it does not make sense to use annual prediction in horary but we do it in mundane and natal. We could say that the concept (annual prediction) is similar in both mundane and natal but the techniques are different viz. solar return for natal and ingress for mundane (however they still share a technique i.e. profection). I remember reading a book on horary many many years back where the author uses primary direction in a horary chart - but is this valid?

You gave an example of VOC moon. This concept is definitely used in natal by the hellenistic astrologers and somehow got into horary (if we believe that natal came before horary). Mind you that there are many definitons of VOC moon! However, the way we use it and the interpretation will be different. A natal chart with VOC moon and moon happens to rule the ascendant and/or is the main luminary, does not bode well for the native's life (unless he is the wandering jew). A horary chart with VOC moon does not talk about the native, rather it is about the native's endeavour on bringing the quesited to fruition (assuming that the moon does represent the native whih is the case unless the querent is asking on behalf of another).

Some concepts are permanent (we never change who rules Taurus no matter which branch of astrology we do - unless you wish to include those esoteric forms of astrology!), there are some that are similar in concepts but not in techniques (like the yearly prediction, the symbolic timing methods, etc.) and I do believe that some are exclusively used in certain branch of astrology (methods in finding the cause of disease in natal and horary/decumbiture).
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handn



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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:53 am    Post subject: Re: using horary rules for reading a natal chart Reply with quote

Hello Sandstone

I'm finding myself agreeing with what's been posted so far, but I'm also interested in hearing more about your question.

sandstone wrote:
this is something i have noticed that seems to happen a lot.


About your opening statement, can I ask 'where?' and 'by whom?'

Regards

handn
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

first off, thanks for the additional comments here and i apologize in advance if i neglect to respond to a specific question that i might have overlooked.. astrojin sums up some of my thoughts in the first paragraph of their post and also articulates what seems like a development that might have happened historically by accident, or?

i think using predictive techniques like solar arc directions on a horary chart is a bizarre concept, but maybe someone does it.. it would seem a horary chart is different then a natal chart and this is one technique that i doubt someone would apply to a horary chart.. maybe some here do though..

astraea - thanks for your comment - Christian Borup, published an essay in which he said that natal charts are essentially horaries: - that is an interesting thought to entertain..

handlin - to your question - where and by whom - i don't have a specific person or example to offer..it is perhaps an over-generalization on my part to say i see this happening a lot.. i think it would be better for me to say i see certain techniques that i associate with horary being applied to read a natal chart and i want to know if folks here have any thoughts about this.. does one take a rule for reading a horary chart and apply this same rule for reading a natal chart? if yes, can you give an example.. if no, can you give an example... if either yes or no, do you have any thoughts on this process of taking rules that might have been set up for finding an answer to a question and using it for reading a natal chart?

also, correct me if i am wrong, but the issue of houses seems a bit more critical in horary if i am not mistaken.. if someone is using a different house system like whole sign houses for example, can they take this system and use it for reading a horary chart for example? it would seem to me that if you can take rules or techniques from one avenue of astrology and apply it to another different avenue of astrology, where do you draw the line on using these different techniques or systems one can choose from to apply to a number of different branches of astrology? all feedback welcome..
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Quote:
I for one am not clear on which rules (if any) were designed specifically for horary astrology, to the exclusion of other branches.


I may have missed this in the previous discussion but I see no specific mention here of the horary considerations before judgement excluding the void of course Moon.

http://www.horary.com/sward/Consids.html

I would probably count horary and electional astrology as overlapping branches as many horary principles cross over to an electional chart. This is less true of natal or mundane charts.

To the best of my knowledge quite a few horary rules dont appear in traditional natal principles. For example the via combusta, early/late rising degrees or planetary hour rulers. The only medieval astrologer I have spotted using planetary hour rulers in natal delineation is Ibn Ezra.

The resemblance between natal and horary seems to have become closer by the early modern period with the heavy focus on house rulers to delineate nativities. In earlier medieval astrology the location of a planet by house was central but this seems to have been superceded somewhat later.

One natal technique that resembles horary to me is that of looking at applying aspects to the Moon (men) or Sun (women) to determine how many marriages a person will have.

Mark
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