In Mundo vs Zodiacal Aspects

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I have just noticed Tony (aka Anthony) Louis has updated an old thread in the horary forum which discusses aspects in signs of long and short ascension.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1742

It actually seems just as relevent to this forum.

As you will see Tony has just written a short discussion on his website which investigates the fascinating and much ignored topic of in mundo or mundane versus conventional zodiacal aspects in natal charts.

http://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012/01/ ... t-a-trine/

Its worth reading the comments in the earlier link too. Especially those by Deb and of course Tony.

I have always felt this was a neglected part of the astrological tool box. Ironically it seems the ancient astrologers were much more conscious of this than we are today.

Here is an article on the subject of in mundo or mundane aspects by the Ken Bowser that appeared in the Mountain Astrologer in 1996:

http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com ... _mundo.pdf

Ken Bowser is a siderealist but that obviously has no relevance to the use of in mundo aspects.

Bringing this down to practicalities what astrological software do people recommend for calculating in mundo aspects?

If anyone is up for it I thought this thread might be a good opportunity to discuss mundane vs zodiacal aspects by comparing a few well known charts. Any takers?

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

Re: In Mundo vs Zodiacal Aspects in Natal Charts

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I don't use any kind of non-zodiacal aspects myself, but I think it's important to be clear that there are (at least) three quite different varieties around.

What the ancients used (when they used them) seems to have been aspect angles calculated by oblique ascension. If the point on the celestial equator rising with planet A was 120 degrees distant from the point on the celestial equator rising with planet B, then, by this reckoning, planets A and B were in an ascensional trine.

Much later, in the 16th century, Magini suggested calculating aspect angles in right ascension. I don't know if he was the first, and I don't believe it ever caught on. In this method, the planets' positions are projected directly onto the celestial equator, and if two such projections happen to be 120 degrees apart, then the planets in question are considered to trine each other.

The method most in vogue today (among the few who use non-zodiacal aspects at all) is the one invented by Placidus in the 17th century, which is based on proportional semi-arcs. Every semi-arc is equated to 90 degrees, so that if planet A is exactly on the ascendant, and planet B has gone one-third of the way from the midheaven to the descendant, then planets A and B are considered to form a mundane trine.

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I'm very familiar with Placidus aspects because in Cieloeterra they like and use a lot.

I'm not so happy-I mean - but just because I don't like to have tons of aspects in a chart, I like minimal style in everything, astrology included.

On the other hand I use mundane directions ( Placidus aspects too) because it seems to me they work and moreover directions are always very rare.

p.s. new version of Morinus includes a mundane chart, with planets arranged by their mundane position, but the version is buggy, so I've not definitely installed- hope soon it will be fixed.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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Margherita wrote:
p.s. new version of Morinus includes a mundane chart, with planets arranged by their mundane position, but the version is buggy, so I've not definitely installed- hope soon it will be fixed.
I note Tony Louis states in the old thread that Solar Fire has a 'Placidus Mundoscope' feature. I have Solar Fire Gold but I have never located this. Anyone else found it? :???:

Thanks Martin for the historical clarification of the different varieties of mundane aspects. I had only ever considered using semi-arcs. I have noticed references to the ascensional approach you refer to in texts like Antiochus. Surely though the astrological use of semi-arcs dates back to Ptolemy?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Mark wrote: I note Tony Louis states in the old thread that Solar Fire has a 'Placidus Mundoscope' feature. I have Solar Fire Gold but I have never located this. Anyone else found it? :???:

Mark
you should choose f6 and then z-analogue diurnal arc. (someone explained here sometimes ago)
The problem is this chart always starts from Aries, not the real Ascendant.

Morinus version is cooler, because it is the real chart with planets according mundane positions.
Unfortunately this version is very buggy in primary directions calculation :(

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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margherita, thanks for pointing that out on solar fire.. i notice there are many options in that window to do with z-analogue - 9 specifically... perhaps one of those other 8 options to do with z-analogue provides what you are looking for? i have solar fire version 7.3.1

also i note astrolabe is selling this.. has anyone worked with this program?
http://alabe.com/placidus.html

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Mark wrote:Thanks Martin for the historical clarification of the different varieties of mundane aspects. I had only ever considered using semi-arcs. I have noticed references to the ascensional approach you refer to in texts like Antiochus. Surely though the astrological use of semi-arcs dates back to Ptolemy?
For directions, yes, but not for aspects. As far as I know, Placidus was the first to propound that idea.

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Margherita wrote:
you should choose f6 and then z-analogue diurnal arc. (someone explained here sometimes ago)
The problem is this chart always starts from Aries, not the real Ascendant.
Thanks a lot. It gives some very interesting new insights on my own chart. I finally have some squares in my chart! Does it really matter about the ascendant? I mean we are given all the in mundo aspects anyway. I must try this out on some mundane ie political charts. :lala

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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James_M wrote:
margherita, thanks for pointing that out on solar fire.. i notice there are many options in that window to do with z-analogue - 9 specifically... perhaps one of those other 8 options to do with z-analogue provides what you are looking for? i have solar fire version 7.3.1
I have all those options but I dont think any of the others do semi-arcs. There is another option Z-Analogue -RA which sounds somewhat like another approach to mundane aspects discussed by Martin (and Ken Bowser's article). However, it seems to give different results from Ken Bowser's article citing mundane aspects using right ascension. :???:

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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hi mark,
none of them bring the ascendant into the picture... they give you the changes according to right ascension, but they don't alter the ascendant from 0 aries... sort of like a draconian chart or what they do to look at a chart based on nodes at 0 aries, except in right ascension...

i don't recall trying to do this with the morinus software but i am going to try.. i asked the folks at solar fire about this and they said they had no plans to develop more tools for reading primary directions, but shared the link to those other software programs that do this apparently... would be good to have a 1 astro prog does all!!!

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james_m wrote:hi mark,
none of them bring the ascendant into the picture... they give you the changes according to right ascension, but they don't alter the ascendant from 0 aries... sort of like a draconian chart or what they do to look at a chart based on nodes at 0 aries, except in right ascension...

i don't recall trying to do this with the morinus software but i am going to try.. i asked the folks at solar fire about this and they said they had no plans to develop more tools for reading primary directions, but shared the link to those other software programs that do this apparently... would be good to have a 1 astro prog does all!!!
Morinus would be perfect if primary directions would work in the latest version, and unfortunately it is not the case.
On the contrary in the previous version directions work, but there is not mundane chart :( hope Robert will fix this

On the other hand it is strange that SF puts Ascendant as Aries, in practice mundane positions depend on houses, not on signs....

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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James M wrote:
also i note astrolabe is selling this.. has anyone worked with this program?
http://alabe.com/placidus.html
I just upgraded to it (yesterday). Previously I used Placidus 4.0. Both programs do exactly what Rumen Kolev, the author, says they do, calculate all types of primary directions. I found 4.0 a little buggy. The printed speculum had overlaps and the solar returns weren't always calculated correctly, although some of that may have been my fault. But I overlooked the faults because there was nothing in the way of primary directions that I could not do.

In the latest version the overlapping in the printouts seemed to be eliminated, and so far I've found no inaccuracies with SR calculation. The biggest difference is the inclusion of the module Porphyus Magus a complete program of calculating charts using Babylonian astrology techniques. I don't know much about Babylonian astrology, but I am interested.

If you are a complete newcomer to primaries, the program will be difficult to use. Kolev wrote three booklets on primaries that are very informative and even show you how to do it "by hand," and I recommend them or at least the first two. If your Virgo nature is out of control you may wish to do this. If you're like most of us, you'll skip the trig and concentrate on what he is telling us about primary directions.

The program is expensive, but you won't get this much information in one place anywhere else.