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Conflicting factors
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Phil



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
Posts: 51

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Conflicting factors Reply with quote

How to handle some seemingly conflicting findings on a natal chart, regarding strength of planetary expression?

Sun and moon are conjunct in Scorpio, but the moon is combust. What’s the net effect there? Does a moon being in Scorpio further detract from the quantitative strength of its expression, or does it give the moon a qualitatively “negative” meaning?

House-wise, the sun & moon are in a cadent 9 by Placidus, and an angular 10 by whole sign. Does the sun being in its house of joy by Placidus add strength of expression? Does the moon take a further beating being opposite its house of joy by Placidus?
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Moon in its fall shows that whatever the Moon represents being ignored, of ill-repute and of poor quality in a Moon-type way. The combustion will show a powerlessness or fear in the context of what the Moon represents in your chart.

I am currently trying to rectify whole-sign and quadrant in my mind and I feel I am close to integrating them together efficiently but not enough to give you a definite answer in regards to the Sun's joy question you posed.

I remember reading something about a corrupted Moon in the 9th during the day meaning something about the native's faith. I think it was in Abu Ali's On the Judgement of Nativites. I will look it out later and report it back to you.
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Konrad



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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just had a quick look and Abu Ali says it is the Moon's nodes in those houses, so scratch what I said about the Moon being there.
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Vasanth



Joined: 05 Jun 2011
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Phil,

Definitely the planets in 10th whole sign are important. They aspect the ascendant. I don't have much idea if combustion does have any effect on the moon for natal work. One important observation when the Sun and Moon are conjunct is that the Part of Spirit, Part of Fortune and the Ascendant all tends to be in the same sign.

For understanding the condition of Sun and Moon, check where Mars is. If it aspects the Sun & Moon and if it is in a good condition, and further if Jupiter aspects them, I think the Sun and Moon should be well-off.

I was recently seeing Steven Spielberg's chart. Let's see if this provides any help. He has Moon in fall, Venus in detriment in 5th house, but both are received by exalted Mars and conjunct Jupiter which is peregrine but in good solar phase
Mars is the only planet with good essential dignity in the chart, rest of the planets are either exile, fall or peregrine. Also Mars is angular by whole sign house, it rules 5th and 10th houses which are beneficial to the native and it trines the part of Fortune.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Spielberg,_Steven

Vasanth
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Phil



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Konrad and Vasanth. I appreciate both your responses. This brings up another question: it seems relatively easy to discuss the attributes of a well-dignified planet, or a sign or house well-fortified by planets at home there. What about a peregrine or poorly dignified (by sign or house) planet? In the above example, suppose the sun and moon have not much to help them out by way of aspects. Suppose Mars and Jupiter are in bad shape and don’t aspect the sun/moon. Would you say the sun and moon are less expressed in the chart? Or is it some “dark”, flipside meaning to them? Is the scorpio sign thus weak, or just imbued with its “worst” attributes?
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Konrad



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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
Thank you Konrad and Vasanth. I appreciate both your responses. This brings up another question: it seems relatively easy to discuss the attributes of a well-dignified planet, or a sign or house well-fortified by planets at home there. What about a peregrine or poorly dignified (by sign or house) planet? In the above example, suppose the sun and moon have not much to help them out by way of aspects. Suppose Mars and Jupiter are in bad shape and don’t aspect the sun/moon. Would you say the sun and moon are less expressed in the chart? Or is it some “dark”, flipside meaning to them? Is the scorpio sign thus weak, or just imbued with its “worst” attributes?


It is my experience that a planet in a pivot will never be expressed weakly. As I said, a planet in its fall represents one of a lower quality or standing while a planet in detriment shows one who is ultimately ruined or expressing a socially unacceptable signification in the manner of the nature of the planet. A peregrine planet is one who is able to signify both positive and negative situations but, in my experience, veering more towards the negative manifestations. More importantly though for peregrine planets is that they must rely on the resources of their lords to "get by".

If the lord of a planet does not see the planet it rules, then look for a lighter planet to carry the light from it to the one ruled or a heavier one collecting both of their lights to act as a mediator.

If the planet cannot see the sign it rules at all, then that shows that there will be difficulties with whatever that house or lot signifies, a sort of inconstancy. I have noticed that a benefic being present in the house while its lord is in aversion helping somewhat but there does seem to always be that "up-and-down" feeling in regards to its significations.

I wouldn't say the sign itself shows any sort of negative "Scorpio traits" but rather whatever topic Scorpio signifies tends to be a difficult aspect of life for the native. Almost like a lack of control or inability to recognise what is happening and thus take advantage of the relevant situations. The lesser lords of Scorpio can help somewhat if they see the sign but I don't find they can replace the domicile lord's duties. The exaltation lord does more consistently, I find, if he/she is present in the sign.
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Dave



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: On the Fall of a Planet Reply with quote

A planet in fall indicates a loss of attachment or hold; it suggests going from a higher or better position to a lower or inferior one. It indicates a loss of support. Fall can show collapse. It signifies overthrow or capture. When in fall a planet may connote yielding to sin or temptation. Moral lapse. It might show depression or loss of faith. It is dejection and being cast down. It can indicate some sort of inheritance which becomes a cause of sorrow or a burden too heavy to bear. It may point to some unwanted or undesirable responsibility. Decline or retreat. Financially it often means falling in arrears, getting behind. It can show deceit or illusion. Failure to meet standards or expectations. Deficiency. Failure; a thing comes to nothing. A crash, or a sudden loss of value or reputation. Surrender.

The Moon in the 9th, dealing with morals, faith...
Often Moon in 9th suggests excommunication or some other form of change in religion. Martin Luther had it, and in the chart I use for Gandhi it is also present.

I am not so sure a combust planet means "fear" or "inability to act, loss of power." I have a combust Mercury (should Mercury be excepted from combustion?) There is nothing wrong with my rational mind, and my powers of communcation are above average. When I was detained by the Mexican police once, they said that my accuser had told them I had "don de palabra, which is "gift of gab" or "silver tongue."

I think what happens when a planet is combust is that its powers are expropriated by the Sun, and it is unable to act in its own right. The focus of the planet becomes such that its scope of action is severly limited and exludes all but what is its essential interest, determined by the Sun. It is consumed, or perhaps self-consumed. Naturally, the houses ruled by the planet will show negative effects. Just a thought.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: On the Fall of a Planet Reply with quote

Dave wrote:
I am not so sure a combust planet means "fear" or "inability to act, loss of power." I have a combust Mercury (should Mercury be excepted from combustion?) There is nothing wrong with my rational mind, and my powers of communcation are above average. When I was detained by the Mexican police once, they said that my accuser had told them I had "don de palabra, which is "gift of gab" or "silver tongue."


I don't think a combusted Mercury will show someone with a lower quality of rational mind since Mercury is pretty much under the beams most of the time. That would make pretty much everyone a brain-dead, dribbling mess! You should look at his dispositor and any way he is received. I have also read of someone (I think in Montulmo) who had Mercury in a bad state with a poorly placed dispositor but his lord of the Asc was in fine state and according to Montulmo the boy was bright, inqusitive and intelligent. It is never down to just one testimony.

As for your thoughts on combustion, you may be correct, I have just noticed that people with a combust 2nd house ruler, for instance, tend to have difficulties making money or Asc lords combust, these people tend to be fearful of life in general. I suppose we just have to follow our experiences.
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Dave



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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, Vasanth gave good advice here. The condition of Mars is of first importance in this particular case, because he is the lord of Scorpio and determines what goes on there and why. If you will "read" Mars in this particular chart you will see what determines or disposes this conjunction. If you read Mars in depth, it sets the stage for Sun/Moon, and determines how and why they act.

Also, in any chart with Sun and Moon in the same sign, you will quite likely notice a very conspicuous self-absorption, with an inability to see things from any but a self-centered point of view.

Here's a story to illustrate: There was this guy with Sun/Moon in Pisces (the sign modifies the way it works, but what I said in the paragraph above holds for any sign). He was a huge man, a giant. I was working with a group of people engaged in building an ashram, and by lot it fell to the giant to build the kitchen sink and counter. He did a nice job of it. Except for one thing. Every single person in the group, in order to prepare meals or wash dishes, had to get up on a high footstool. This giant had built the counter to his dimensions and never once considered that the rest of us were midgets.
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Dave



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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing.....Conflicting statements in a chart.
Whatever is said by any factor in a chart is true. If there is conflict in what the chart says, there is conflict within the personality or behavior of the native. One does not negate the other. The challenge then becomes weighing the relative power and influence of one conflicting factor against the other. In most cases this can be judged rather easily. If other, seemingly unrelated, factors in the chart tend to repeat a statement then that statement will most likely predominate. All the traditional dignities, strength of position, aspects....go into the balance and one factor will usually have more weight than the other. Of first importance, of course, is careful analysis of the chart as a whole as a preliminary step (which will guide the reading of details) because any particular or specific factor must conform to the dictates of the chart (organism) as a whole. "A house divided cannot stand."
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Phil



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Dave and Konrad, for all of the well articulated input above. It’s very helpful. Both of your Mercuries seem to be in good working order. It seems that the mechanisms Konrad refers to will help tease out the overall resolution or détente between conflicts in the chart. Equally important, as Dave points out, is the fact that there are conflicts at all. Superficially, a trait or manifestation that is the result of tension between conflicting factors in the chart may resemble a trait that is the result of a single, unimpeded factor. But subjectively, these overtly similar traits will be experienced very differently by the one who expresses them. That’s a huge point.

The bad news is that in this chart Mars is in Libra. 9th house by whole sign, 8th by Placidus.
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Phil



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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And one last question about the houses: the consensus I’ve seen is that quadrant systems relate to the overall strength of planets, while whole signs apply the planets topically to their houses. I’m a novice here so please forgive if I’m wrong, but I thought, after having followed a few discussion threads, that this “dual system framework” was somewhat theoretical. Avoiding the issue of which framework is “better” (a question which seems contentious at best, meaningless at worst) I’d just ask if this “dual framework” is well-entrenched or still an idea that people are trying on. And how would it apply to, for example, the above sun conjunct moon in scorpio in 9 by Placidus, 10 by whole sign?
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
Quote:
I’m a novice here so please forgive if I’m wrong, but I thought, after having followed a few discussion threads, that this “dual system framework” was somewhat theoretical.


It is. It is an attractive notion which I have looked at myself but I wonder if we are reinterpreting the historical evidence to suit our own modern convenience? Ben Dykes has been advocating using whole sign for topics and quadrant to measure strength lately. The question for Ben Dykes or anyone else suggesting this is what practical examples do we have of astrologers giving horoscopes or chart examples supporting this theory? To date the evidence seems exceedingly scarce. Part of this seems to be built on Robert Schmidt's theory that hellenistic astrologers only used quadrant houses to measure planetary strength in length of life calculation but not for topics. However, that theory itself is far from proven as a universal position. I intend to open a thread on that soon. From the medieval examples I have seen e.g. Masha'Allah he seems to be using both whole sign and quadrant systems to measure topics. So both systems are being combined by this astrologer at least but I dont see the firm evidence he is restricting quadrants to just assessment of strength.

This doesn't mean this approach might not be a valid and indeed a pragmatic one. I personally think it is. However, I think its a far more open question on how much we can say this approach is traditional. Of course since whole sign houses were never transmitted to the Latin west it was never an issue throughout European medieval and renaissance astrology. So most of our traditional authorities on medieval astrology are of limited help resolving this.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:11 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
From the medieval examples I have seen e.g. Masha'Allah he seems to be using both whole sign and quadrant systems to measure topics. So both systems are being combined by this astrologer at least but I dont see the firm evidence he is restricting quadrants to just assessment of strength.


Yes Mark, this is something I have seen too and it is something which interests me greatly though, I must confess I find whole-sign to accurately describe the situation more clearly in both horary and natal. I think the Eastern astrologers of Masha'allah's time would be the best group to use to try and untangle this since they were the group to work when both systems had some sort of prominence. As far as the texts I have studied are concerned though, I haven't seen much mixing in the way Masha'allah does.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:

Quote:
Yes Mark, this is something I have seen too and it is something which interests me greatly though, I must confess I find whole-sign to accurately describe the situation more clearly in both horary and natal.


I agree on natal but not horary. I would use WS predominantly for natal but probably reverse that for horary. Horary seems to rely more than natal on planetary strength. Interestingly, several other advocates of WS here were reporting the same experience in a recent thread. My personal explanation for this apparent contradiction is that horary is often more 'fated' while natal allows more scope for free will. Horary by definition has a short term and practical focus which is usually very time limited while a nativity unfolds in a whole lifetime. Of course hard fatalists would probably disagree and assign the same outlook to nativities.

Incidentally, I seem to recall the late hellenistic author Rhetorius (The Compendium) seems to be using WS and quadrant too.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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