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primary directions verses solar arc directions
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: primary directions verses solar arc directions Reply with quote

i find sa data (solar arc directions) really informative.. it is not foolproof, but i don't know if any predictive tool in astrology is.. i have spent much less time looking at primary directions and i know there are a number of different ways you can arrive at them, as is being discussed on another thread here...

for anyone who has worked with both at length, i am wondering if you could offer your views on the pros and cons to either, or even better if you feel like saying why you use one over the other.. thanks in advance. james
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Atlantean



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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to use Solar Arcs extensively (based on Tyl's Solar Arc presentation), but had become less and less enthralled with them through time. Now, I don't use them at all.

I do use Topocentric Primary Directions.

Why? Because, with a correct birthtime, the Primary Directions (including relevant cusps!!!) will be activated at major events with GREAT reliability and with very, very tight orbs. (Under 0° 11' for the conj/opp and under 0° 6' for the other aspects)

With Solar Arcs, every person that I had read that put forth a method had suggested such large orbs so that the aspects they were symbolically relating to the events were tied to each other even though the event and aspect partile were up to a year from each other. Knowing that other systems (Topocentric Primary Directions, Secondary Progressions, Progressed Sidereal Solar Returns) act with very tight (ie. low orbs) precision makes it hard to swallow what, to me, appears (at best) a very sloppy system.

Additionally, depending on whose "brand/presentation" of Solar Arcs you are using, there has been much added onto the system in order for it to appear to work. On another website, which I won't name since we both know which one I mean, I have even seen Solar Arcs referenced (in terms of events) in which the symbolism was COMPLETELY WRONG, but due to them ruling the (believed) relevant Houses were put forth as relevant. Jupiter-Mercury does not "spell" Death of Father. Saturn-Moon does not "spell" lottery win... no matter what houses are ruled!

The disadvantage to Topocentric Primary Directions is that they require a very, very accurate birthtime in order to function. This is both their strong point (since they generally will be able to lead you to that exact birthtime) and their weak point (stringent rectification is necessary).

One other note: This is generally a traditional astrology forum...the primary directions, that they are normally speaking of, are very different from the Topocentric variety of which I have written. (major differences are TPD's always, always have very tight orbs AND the cusps (including intermediate) are HOT SPOTS. ie. birth of Brothers/Sisters showing dramatic activity with Cusp of 3rd... issues of Death showing dramatic activity with Cusp of 8th, etc.) Additionally, this system is not in any way limited to the old promissor/signficator ideas which are limiting. Use the inherent symbolism of the bodies involved and all will be okay!

As examples, using OUT-OF-SAMPLE events in my life...

The ONE time in my life when Neptune (mourning) could form an inconjunct by Primary Direction to my Sun (important men in my life), my Grandfather died.

The ONE time in my life when Pluto (death/transformation) could conjoin my Node (associations, family ties, especially maternal ones), my Grandmother died.

The ONE time in my life when my 8th House cusp (issues of death) could square my Mercury (r. 3rd, Siblings); I got a call from my Brother that my step-Father had died. [By the way, my Natal Mercury sits at the cusp and also rules my 12th House...so any negative primary direction to it can result in undermining and/or profoundly sad things]

The ONE time in my life when my Moon (important women in my life) could form an inconjunct to my 8th House cusp (issues of death), my ex-Wife died.

If you look at all these aspects, they are to scant minutes of arc!

If you'd like, I'd be happy to share my birthdata and event data and you can see for yourself that the Solar Arcs are not particularly noteworthy...certainly NOTHING nearly so dramatic as the (Topocentric) Primary Directions.

Hope this helps in answering your question. Wink

Peace

Atlantean
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi atlantean,

thanks for your comments! i use solar arc directions with 1 degree orb or less and i use them extensively with midpoints.. without the midpoint data or the tight orb, i would be seeing too much. i also use a set of aspects based on the even series.. essentially i am doing something akin to the cosmobiologists and ebertin's work.. i have found them very informative and of course i am not using house cusps as i found there are more house cusps using different house systems then a person would want to shake a stick at.. in this regard i am also following a path laid down by ebertin and company..

i have heard you discuss this issue before, but i can always hear it again!

i think the best way to see the relevance of the data, regardless whether it is solar arc, or primary is to see it thru an example chart for yourself.. at least that is what i find the most rewarding.. another astrologer can always point to different astro factors at work, but unless i am interested to try these tools out myself, it is mostly data that i don't really appreciate to the fullest degree...

how another astrologer arrives at their conclusions is really good to know.. i always find myself asking more questions then not, such as what orb are you using, what aspects and etc. etc. etc. it is helpful to know all this, but ultimately i have to be the one doing it myself, while keeping my mind open to the fact i do or don't see the connections between solar arc or primary direction data.. this is actually why i bring this up.. i can go back to events in my own life with specific dates, but not see the astro connections on the level of primary directions.. i could immediately blow them off, or i could ask myself - what am i not looking at, or failing to consider? primary directions can be done a few different ways, as can solar arc directions.. these are pieces to the puzzle of why something might or might not work for someone..

thanks for your comments..
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello james m

You are welcome!

One comment... re: "i use solar arc directions with 1 degree orb or less"

Just realize that that brings into consideration for an event every Solar Arc that happened up to a year before and after.

The implication is that my car accident in July was "foretold" by an aspect that was partile last August. That is a hard idea for me to swallow, frankly.

Just to contrast that with Topocentric Primary Directions, as per your original question...

Malefics with the 3rd cusp or especially Uranus with Mars (or Uranus & Mars simultaneously with a natal point), in Primary Direction, are very normal for accidents. If the malefic w/ 3rd or a Uranus-Mars Primary Direction are partile conjunctions or oppositions in July, then the connected event(s) will be from May to September. If the aspects were OTHER than conj or opp, then the connected event(s) will be between June and August.

Alexander Marr mentions the "overlap method" of analysis, with the idea that, if there are several simultaneous aspects symbolic of the event (which happens often in TPD's) that the event will transpire in the period where all of those aspects are still within orb. This often helps to specify a much tighter timeframe.

Take care and good luck with your studies!

James
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks! and good luck with yours too!
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i suppose it is difficult for folks to want to comment on a topic that may mean more to me then it does to them!

i did want to point out that while reading the thread on primary directions from a few days ago i happened to note that isaac starkman offered some comments that i found very helpful and i am going to share them here in the thought that while some might not be so diligent to read old threads looking for answers for there questions, i happened to see something that was like an indirect response to my question, so i am sharing it for anyone still interested..

>>Martin didn't find secondary directions helpful (p.140). I have found them very effective and in many cases, they are more important than the primary directions! But one should use the Solar Arc in Right Ascension for direction MC. <<

you can find isaac starkmans comment on page 6 of this thread if you want to see the specific post of his. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2213&start=75&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
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Atlantean



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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello james m,

Good point... you just throw the information out there and those that find a need will (hopefully) take note.

Re: Progressions

Yes,...what you wrote (quoting Starkman) is a fundamental point. Progressing the MC by the Sun's Right Ascension (not longitude) is incredibly important. The fact that I couldn't get Kepler to do exactly that is what caused me to drop Kepler, an otherwise useful and feature-filled program.

Of course, it's recommended that others check this statement out for themselves. If someone is using the longitude for the progression, then it is no wonder that some found them not so useful.

Thanks for bringing up this point... hopefully some will take the ball and run with it. Wink

If not; hey, you did what you could! Smile

Peace

James
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks james!

isaacs comments are helpful in that he makes a comment on something that i think is of interest to anyone working with these different techniques...

here is another one - i have found secondary progressions not nearly as useful as solar arc directions in spite of the popularity of sps from when i first started astrology many years ago..

i was just reading on morin and placidus that either one or both of them didn't find working with profections useful... to me info like this is interesting to ponder if you are going to take the time to learn these systems...

really i would like feedback on any predictive technique, but i am most interested in hearing from those who work with primary directions as it is something i have only casually looked at in the past few years... prior to this, i was never able to examine them as i never understood how to arrive at them on my own... in that regard not much has changed and one could say i have been dumbed down with astro software, but the way i see it is not everyone has the aptitude for mathematics in the same way... i am passionate about doing astrology either way and this won't stop...

thanks for your comments
james
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
I have found secondary progressions not nearly as useful as solar arc directions in spite of the popularity of sps from when i first started astrology many years ago..


I agree. That has been my experience too. Solar arcs are one of the most useful predictive techniques in modern astrology.

James_M wrote:
Quote:
I was just reading on morin and placidus that either one or both of them didn't find working with profections useful... to me info like this is interesting to ponder if you are going to take the time to learn these systems...


With all due respect to my esteemed predecessors..they were completely wrong if that was what they said! Very Happy

Profections certainly do work. In fact they are one of the most useful techniques in predictive astrology. In the medieval approach these would be combined with primary directions and solar returns.

Its actually been suggested that Placido developed secondary progessions through a misunderstanding of Ptolemy's description of profections.

I dont really have time to get into profections here but there was a very extensive discussion of them in the English riots thread:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6294&sid=1c41b2db5385dac68c63ddbc01a74544

The profections discussion starts on page 3 of the thread. As you will see in the thread there are two different kinds of profections. I utilise them both.

Like you I haven't really had the opportunity to get into primaries. Largely , due to lack of adequate software. I am not very good on the mathematical side of things. Moreover I have had real problems downloading the highly rated free Morinus software. Equally, I simply cannot afford the delux Placidus software of Rumen Kolev, However, its now at the top of my to do list to get this issue resolved. Martin Gansten's book makes primaries more comprehensible than any other book on the subject. However, Rumen Kolev's booklets are good too in terms of example charts. Kolev uses outer planets but Gansten adopts a strictly traditional approach and leaves them out.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks mark,

i will examine that thread you have shared...

page 140 of martin ganstens book,
"having rejected both profections and, for all practical purposes, revolutions( solar returns and such i suppose), Placidus was in need of another auxiliary technique. As discussed in Chapter 2, he found it in his secondary directions, familiar to most present-day astrologers as(secondary) progressions and calculated by the simple formula 'a day for a year'."

not sure what Morin was or wasn't doing, as i am still waiting for book 21 to arrive in the mail and looking forward to reading it too based on some of the comments i have read.. he seems like he had an independent mind and wasn't afraid to buck tradition if needed.. have to admire a guy like that! he appears to have the same mercury/uranus conjunction aq that alfred witte had...actually just looking now - witte had a close opposition but the 2 charts bear some strong resemblance which is interesting.. both sun/saturn in pisces and etc. etc.

it is interesting a day for a year, verses a degree per year... i sometimes wonder about these distinctions and whether something got lost in the translation... i don't completely discount sec progs, but overall they suck compared to solar arc directions...
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Ed F



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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone happen to know whether and how Placido "progressed" the angles and cusps? This is on the assumption that he was the inventor of secondaries as stated above.

Thanks,

- Ed
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed F wrote:
Anyone happen to know whether and how Placido "progressed" the angles and cusps? This is on the assumption that he was the inventor of secondaries as stated above.

He was; but to him they were strictly an auxiliary technique, dependent on the primary directions. The angles, having no secondary motion, cannot be directed using secondary directions (which is what Placidus called them); and as Placidus accepted only the five Ptolemaic significators, he was left with only the Sun and Moon to direct in this fashion. He may perhaps have considered the secondary directions of some other planet in the relatively rare instances where such a planet would qualify as hyleg according to Ptolemy's criteria; but I can't recall seeing an instance of this (perhaps Margherita would know?).

As far as I am aware (although I'm no expert on the modern period), the current practice of combining the primary directions of the angles with the secondary directions of all the planets into a 'progressed horoscope' originated with Alan Leo (whose grasp of the traditional technique was shaky to say the least).
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi ed,

i don't know, but i am guessing that you are wondering in right ascension verses in zodiac degree? the angles are such a critical factor and the first thing i look at when i am examining these different predictive charts too... you get different results depending on the system you set the computer to..

here is an overview from noel tyls book intro on solar arcs that you might find interesting, but it doesn't really address your question. perhaps someone who is very familiar with bonatis writing on placidus can comment...

>>The academic brilliance of Ptolemy’s System (later to be called Primary Directions) influenced mathematicians for 1,400 years! Great scholars worked overtime to try to simplify what Ptolemy had created so brilliantly: scholarly mathematicians like Antonius Maginus (around 1604) and his contemporary Valentino Naboda (Naibod, to the English) came into prominence. Maginus adapted Primary Directions into a system leading to what we now call Secondary Progressions; he still related symbolic planetary positions to the equator as Ptolemy did, but he advanced in the ephemeris one day for every year of life rather than clocking degree passage over the Midheaven.
(At the same time, during the first half of the seventeenth century, Johannes Kepler [who had been an assistant to Tycho Brahe and was court mathematician, astrologer, and astronomer to the emperor Rudolph II, king of Rumania and Hungary] recognized that planets moved with variable speeds in elliptical orbits and invented some ten minor aspects. He is said to have considered that the number of days after birth that the Sun took to reach a natal planet was equivalent to the number of years of the native’s life that would elapse before the indicated influence would manifest itself.17 This is a reference contemporaneous with the work of Maginus and Naibod, preparing the way for Secondary Progressions and eventually pure Solar Arc theory.)
Naibod established the mean-motion of the diurnal Sun (59'08") as the key increment in progression—an extremely important step on the way to revelation of Solar Arc theory. Naibod’s mean arc symbolically equaled one year of life. This mean-motion is the rate of motion that divides the interval between 57' and 61' minutes of arc, the span of possible Sun motion, at a point with the same number of incidences of divergence above and below the measure, with a constant, graduated development between the two extremes.18
The great William Lilly, writing in the middle of the seventeenth century, recognized these three great systems: “But now we come to handle the measure of time in Directions, wherein there are at this day [1647] three severall opinions, yet no such as doe make any great difference in the matter.”19 I think Lilly is saying here that we have three great theoretical systems but none of them is a clear winner.
As we have seen, the first was Ptolemy and his Primary Directions. The second measure of time was that propounded by Maginus (published in 1604), who linked himself to the recently deceased, brilliant Danish astronomer/astrologer Tycho Brahe and Doctor John Dee, an original Fellow of Sir Isaac Newton’s own Trinity College at Cambridge, an occultist and astrologer for Queen Elizabeth’s coronation.
The third measure was Naibod’s mean motion arc.
It is interesting that Maginus himself, in 1619, published Naibod’s work and evaluated it with Lilly as “In my owne judgement, the most exactest measure that hitherto hath been found out.”20 I think the popularity Naibod enjoyed was due to the simplicity of his measure: all that was required was an elementary one-reference table.
It seems at this point in time, in the middle of the seventeenth century, that horoscopes—through Lilly’s great public exposure especially—were being drawn less and less in square format and more and more in circular format, but we do not know specifically why. I would submit, however, that occultism was a growing study among astrologers at that time, and the symbolism of the circle was of extreme importance and power in divinatory thought.
The prevailing House system had settled into the Regiomontanus system,21 but this gradually began to change with the rise in fame and importance of Placido de Titis (1603–1668), who directly followed Brahe, Kepler, Maginus, Naibod, and Lilly in prominence in the development of astrological systems.
Placidus was an Italian nobleman, who became a monk and a professor of mathematics at the University of Pavia (1657–1668). He also served as an astrology consultant to the Archduke Leopold William of Austria. Placidus wrote expert treatises on House division, Primary Directions, and the day-for-a-year system of Progressions that were “Secondary” to Ptolemy’s Primary Directions. The Placidus material changed astrology dramatically: almost all the West adopted the Placidian House system, and Secondary Progressions came into full bloom, with simplified orientation to the ecliptic.22
Two hundred and forty-some years later, at the close of the nineteenth century, the British astrologer Sepharial23 joined the list of astrologers who had tried to simplify Ptolemy and refine Naibod’s refinements, all of them searching for an even more facile way and, indeed, a more accurate way, to capture the symbolic significance of the Sun’s movement from day to day (from year to year in terms of degrees) and apply that to the entire horoscope in terms of life time. Sepharial surveyed the scene in his The Science of Foreknowledge24: giving much credit to “Bonattis,” an Italian mathematics professor who published (in 1687) a treatise espousing Placidus’ methods, including Secondary Progressions.25 Sepharial then presents pure Naibod progression, adding the mean increment of the Sun’s motion to each planet and point in the horoscope, arcing them forward this amount in relation to the age of the individual. He then tried a “companion” technique of taking the mean daily motion of the Moon (13°10') and applying this increment to all planets and points in the natal horoscope. And then, he confuses history by calling these Moon projections “Secondaries.” <<

http://www.llewellyn.com/product_excerpt.php?ean=9780738700540&excerpt_id=686
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in everything i read of alan leo, i don't recall the system of solar arc directions or 1 degree = 1 year being presented.. 1 day = 1 year is the basis for the popular term 'secondary progressions' which are different then secondary directions... to my knowledge alan leo was working with sec progs, not solar arc directions... some of the terminology can be similar which makes it a bit confusing..
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Ed F



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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:

As far as I am aware (although I'm no expert on the modern period), the current practice of combining the primary directions of the angles with the secondary directions of all the planets into a 'progressed horoscope' originated with Alan Leo (whose grasp of the traditional technique was shaky to say the least).


Thanks Martin. Leo certainly popularized the conventional method of progressing the angles in secondaries as though they were in primaries. But Sepharial made what I consider a "half-assed" defense of the progressed angle method in his "Manual of Occultism" and also referred to Zadkiel as approving of them as a "good enough" approximation of PDs to the angles. I believe they preceded him with this nonsense.

James, as far as that Tyl quote, I can't even start to comment on its distortions. Well, OK, how about Lilly was a very sloppy mathematician
http://issuu.com/considerations/docs/14-1 p57, and should not be considered a great judge of this aspect of astrology.

- Ed
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