skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

primary directions verses solar arc directions
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, but Lilly used Regiomontanus based directions, while Atlantean is using Topocentric - they deviate quite a bit.

As far as progression vs direction, the common usage seems to be:

direction - natal planetary positions are held static
progression - they're not

I rather prefer Svarogich's approach that I outlined in my previous message:

1. progression - correlation of two frames of reference
2. direction - double application of a single such correlation
3. profection - sequential application of two different pairs of such correlations.

But I'm guessing that's not going to catch on Wink

- Ed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


to talk about directing a planet, but not the angles baffles me.. perhaps there is some rationale for moving some of the points in the chart but not others, so i am curious if someone could articulate this for me... let me add, that i don't ask this based on what was done in the past, so much as understanding the rationale behind it.. thanks!


Placidus says that a planet cannot move to an angle or a cusp "in zodiac" because "the zodiac is not the way of the stars to angles", but a planet can move to an angle or a cusp "in mundo", according a portion of its semiarc.

If you don't have already done, but Martin Gansten's book "Primary Directions".

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2686
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed - i like Svarogich's approach as well.. it is clear...

topocentric verses regiomontanus was discussed in that 17 page primary direction thread i read recently...doing primary directions topocentric makes more sense to me.. however, i don't care for the idea of directing to house cusps and as i recall margerhita mentioned that the older astrologers didn't actually do this anyway... what do you think?

margerhiita

was placidus overturning the way things had been done before him? i have martin ganstens book and i am trying to digest it in a slow fashion so as to understand the astronomy behind the astrology as best i can.. periodically i am forced into understanding the astronomical mechanics behind these different predictive tools that astrologers use, but i typically forget what they are based on, not long after reading the details of it.. i do retain some info to memory, but not a lot with regard to the astronomy of it..
the software has dumbed me down..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure Martin does make that observation about Placidus. On the other hand, I don't believe that older/traditional is necessarily better.

- Ed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

]margerhiita

was placidus overturning the way things had been done before him?


He says no, and I believe less that it is generally declared in the English speaking traditional world, for example it's obvious that Placidus house system is shaped on Ptolemy chapter on directions, but I agree with Martin that part of his teachings are not traditional.

In every case I'm not exactly a Placidus adept.


Quote:
i have martin ganstens book and i am trying to digest it in a slow fashion so as to understand the astronomy behind the astrology as best i can.. periodically i am forced into understanding the astronomical mechanics behind these different predictive tools that astrologers use, but i typically forget what they are based on, not long after reading the details of it.. i do retain some info to memory, but not a lot with regard to the astronomy of it..
the software has dumbed me down.


That's one one of favorite books, but obviously the reader cannot understand everything after the first reading.

Anyway I have my idea that astronomy is not so important, I mean what it is really important is to understand the mathematical method , and then you will never forget.

Astronomy is more difficult to visualize, true, but the practical method is very easy

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1253
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
was placidus overturning the way things had been done before him?

He restored some things (mainly the semi-arc method of direction, which had been largely abandoned in favour of the position-circle method) and invented others (such as his mundane aspects and secondary directions). His house system had been in use earlier; the earliest evidence of which I am aware dates to the 12th century (certainly not to Ptolemy's time).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
His house system had been in use earlier; the earliest evidence of which I am aware dates to the 12th century (certainly not to Ptolemy's time).


Maybe yes, but in every case Placidus was very attentive of where points of Ptolemy's example on directions fell.

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1253
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
Maybe yes, but in every case Placidus was very attentive of where points of Ptolemy's example on directions fell.

Oh, I absolutely agree. Placidus very likely only made explicit what he thought that Ptolemy must have intended. Whether Ptolemy did intend it is of course a different matter. Smile

The painting on the cover of my primary directions book shows 'Prince Ptolemy' as conceived by a Renaissance artist. I think that's a good allegory for Placidean teachings. On one hand, they idolize Ptolemy; on the other, they can't avoid dressing him up in the garb of their own time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello james m

Re: Topocentric and Primary Directions and [james m: "...doing primary directions topocentric makes more sense to me..."]

Considering that Topocentric houses were invented/discovered by using well-verified astrological charts and looking at where the cusps SHOULD be for various Primary Directions at events; it makes logical sense to use this method, since it was empirically derived.

The bottom line... if you want Primary Directions that have "hot cusps" (ie. appropriate cusps being activated at symbolically related events, 3rd for Brothers/Sisters, 5th for Children, 8th for issues of Death, etc.) and aspects that act within scant minutes of arc, then you'll have to use Topocentric. No other approach offers the above mentioned benefits.

To use the antique Wink method is to disregard the fundamental discoveries of the last 100 years, which have lead to a vitally important refinement in how Primary Directions can function.

Since they (Topocentric Primary Directions) are capable (on average) of tying the appropriate events to a period of +/- 2-1/2 weeks, it doesn't make any sense to me to use their less-refined (much older Wink ) "cousin" and have aspects relating to much larger timeframes unnecessarily. It would be like purposefully reaching for foggy glasses, which sit right next to a perfectly clear pair.

Still, I heartily recommend that you do as I did and survey all the various Primary Direction methods that you can find. I believe that it will certainly enhance your appreciation of the Topocentric method.


Peace

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1253
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have ignored the issue of the so-called Topocentric system so far, and have no intention of getting drawn into another debate on it; but as the latest comments by James on the traditional method are almost as misleading as that infamous book by Noel Tyl, let me just note that although the number of 'hits' increases enormously with the use of minor aspects, outer planets and intermediate cusps, the symbolism of the hits presented to support the so-called Topocentric system often seems anything but natural to me.

The traditional use of primary directions aims to identify one or more planets active during a particular period of time, which often covers a number of symbolically related events; therefore there is no one-to-one correspondence between a single direction and a single event. This means that James is criticizing the traditional system for not doing something it never claimed to do (but which, for his own reasons, he obviously thinks it should be doing).

Some of the mathematical problems inherent in the so-called Topocentric system (the cusps of which are nearly identical to Placidus cusps anyway) are discussed here and here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Martin,

I hope that it doesn't feel or seem as though I am baiting you in this conversation. I really don't want to debate it either.

Just realize that on this, a mostly traditional forum, that the "traditional view" tends to ride the headlines while the "opposing view" is buried on page 4, right under the ad for hemorrhoid creme. (likely where some feel it rightfully belongs) Wink

Re: "...The traditional use of primary directions aims to identify one or more planets active during a particular period of time, which often covers a number of symbolically related events"

If the period is large enough, it can contain not only those related to that particular symbolism of which you speak, but of course to many other events that fit a much different symbolism... this is how life is. One can be elected President while grieving the recent death of a Grandmother, for example. Surely it is obvious that, as we more narrowly define the timeframe, we limit out general conditions/events that could statistically be called coincidences.

As the timeframe becomes tighter in time, then it is less-possible to see coincidence as if it were relevant. In other words if "certain astrological symbolism" represents what happens in the 39th year of life, having any certainty of the connection to some event is questionable, since we will likely have some event of that "flavor" during such a large timeframe. In fact, as you have even pointed out, we'll probably have several! On the other hand, if we have for instance, the Ascendant primary directing to conjoin Venus and we say that the person will have this (as Ebertin could describe) important personal experience with important females (likely Wife or Mother) in the environment and we say that it will be within a 2 month period of December 3rd and the person in fact gets married ON December 3rd, though they didn't even choose the date, there is much less maneuvering room to say, "that was just a coincidence."

After faulty birthtimes, coincidence is the greatest problem in Astrology. (imo)

I do appreciate that Primary Directions are used differently by different people. Showing one method and contrasting it to others (especially when they both have the same name Wink ) is not an evil thing, it's just a thing.

Re: "...therefore there is no one-to-one correspondence between a single direction and a single event..."

Pity. There are systems that do allow this, in that events in this tight timeframe will be happening, though there may very well be several, the tight timeframe removes some of the "crapshoot" element of it, in my opinion, since we're not talking about protracted periods of time where we'll find events relating to most POSSIBLE symbolism if we just look hard enough...

As an example, when I saw that (the one time in my life) my Moon could Primary Direct to conjoin Pluto on Jan 16, 2010...this indicated that I would likely have some very emotionally shocking circumstance (pure symbolism) occur within +/- 2 months of that date and since it was Pluto, there is always the possibility that it relates to death by Pluto's natural symbolism of death and decay. Upon looking further, I saw that Mercury would be squaring the 8th cusp on Feb 4, 2010; which reinforced the idea that my mind/thoughts (Mercury) could well be on issues relating to death, since this is a restatement of something that was hinted at as a possibility by the level and theme of the Moon-Pluto conjunction. The fact that the Mercury-8th aspect was a square now ties this to a +/- 1 month time, so I felt very confident that between Jan 4th and Mar 4th that someone would die and it would have a profound emotional impact on me. On February 4th, my Brother (aha, Mercury...brothers, naturally and rules my 3rd House, siblings and 12th House, mournful, undermining things) called me (again, Mercury/3rd House) to inform me of the sudden death (8th House & Pluto here) of my Step-Father. The point in relaying this is not to show some incredible predictive element (of which it really was not), it was to show the reliability of the factors using Topocentric Primary Directions. ie. Once the correct birthtime was established by the many past events of my life, then the future astrological aspects are RELIABLE.

The two main points... 1) without Topocentric Primary Directions I would not have been able to get my birthtime to the specificity necessary in order to really use Primary Directions (effectively)... and 2) the future TPD's are reliable indicators (by pure astrological symbolism and time specificity) of what is to come. Since I use Secondaries and PSSR aspects, there is a lot more that could be written here, but am focusing only on the Primary Directions, ie. the Topic. Wink

Re: "Some of the mathematical problems inherent in the so-called Topocentric system..."

Are these presented from people who actually use and understand the system or by mathematically-justifying philosophical types who just don't BELIEVE that they can work, since they don't understand them and haven't seen the results possible? (ie. is this the same McKransky and Wackford stuff that always gets mentioned? which means nothing in the light of empirical data) The math is really not important conceptually, it is only that the math had to put those cusps at the same place that Primary Directions matched to events when empirically analyzed. The system was developed to match the data...the data (Primary Directions and massive Events Lists came FIRST.) Doesn't matter... I can show case after case after case with dozens of events EACH that show that Topocentric cusps are the hot-points for a House. Let's do that in another thread if there's interest. It's too off-topic to go into here.

This isn't arm-wrestling. The goal isn't to Primary Direct you into submission Wink It is to show another system, strongly contrasted with an old system (of which you happen to have written a book glorifying the old method while giving short shrift to the new method, which I understand through the stated focus of the book, the traditional technique). Anyone that takes the time to actually get their right birthtime and then checks against future events in their life (or out of sample events from the rectification) will see just how well they work.

...and that's what I hope for... a fair "day in court" based on the facts and free of philosophical sniping.

Peace

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1253
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not playing, James. I've said all I have to say on the topic and remain utterly unconvinced by your examples.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3435
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just realize that on this, a mostly traditional forum, that the "traditional view" tends to ride the headlines while the "opposing view" is buried on page 4, right under the ad for hemorrhoid creme. (likely where some feel it rightfully belongs


While it is true that the proportion of traditional astrologers using this site is much higher than most other forums, the idea that a more contemporary view is deliberately hidden is absurd. Posts are put up in chronological order on the forum in which they are posted. No one shifts them around in order to highlight one at the expense of another. There are more traditional articles posted here than modern ones, but that is the nature of the site and a reflection of the interests of most readers. If there are too many traditionalists here for your tastes, there are remedies you can take.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Paul
Administrator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1399

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Atlantean

If you are who I think you are then I remember you from the astro.com forum.

Quote:
The fact that the Mercury-8th aspect was a square now ties this to a +/- 1 month time, so I felt very confident that between Jan 4th and Mar 4th that someone would die and it would have a profound emotional impact on me. On February 4th, my Brother (aha, Mercury...brothers, naturally and rules my 3rd House, siblings and 12th House, mournful, undermining things) called me (again, Mercury/3rd House) to inform me of the sudden death (8th House & Pluto here) of my Step-Father


Just curious why you focused on the square to the 8th, and not, say, to the 2nd? Did anything occur during this same period that related to 2nd house matters?

Also, probably a minor point, but I don't believe that Mercury naturally rules brothers, I had thought that Mars did? Obviously in your own chart it's different of course so probably not important.

I don't believe I have posted my natal chart on this forum, so if you're still interested, I could list as many events even say in the last year and offer them to you. With these events (starting a new job, being made redundant, getting another job, moving home, starting a relationship, ending same relationship etc) could you be confident in finding the time of my chart using topocentric primary directions? If I gave you a 5 hour window say, and my birth time as I know was within that window?

I could give you more details from earlier in my life but with an 'orb' of error because I cannot be confident of the exact days.

(Btw if you think it coudl be done, it's probably better we take it to a separate thread to not clutter this one)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Martin,

Quote:
Re: "I'm not playing, James. I've said all I have to say on the topic..."


As I said, I didn't want to debate it. If you read my reply to you, then I am satisfied.

Peace

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated