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Skyscript Astrology Forum

primary directions verses solar arc directions
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tom,

Sorry....first off, let me say that I didn't mean to imply that anything underhanded was going on. I don't believe that there is...and had I thought that, I would not even be here.

What I mean is... it is basically a Traditional forum. If some crusty tome gets translated, then many will comment on it...it will stay high on the list and be seen over and over because it will constantly be replied to or bumped.

More (let's call them) non-mainstream techniques are likely to be read, but not nearly so often replied to... I understand that it is the nature of the forum, which is fine, but it does prompt me to want to be more vocal in the hopes that others can find the utility in these methods.

I am sure that you remember a previous time or two when these ideas were presented here. I don't relentlessly blather on about it...but in the absence of any discussion of it, I definitely feel motivated to bring it up occasionally. Several have adopted these techniques and I have found a couple of friends/associates that have great interest in discussing some of the finer points. (which is fine by me!) Smile

Again, sorry, Tom, if you got the feeling that I meant someone was deep-sixing these threads. I really don't believe that at all. In fact, if anything, Deb has been quite supportive of anything that I have posted here, so please don't take my comment as a complaint....it is merely an observation.

Peace

James
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Paul,

Re: "If you are who I think you are then I remember you from the astro.com forum."

Yes, I am sure that I am the person that you are remembering. Smile Be that commendation or indictment. Wink

Re: the 8th over the 2nd...

As I mentioned, the Moon-Pluto Primary Direction (a conjunction by the way) is the one time that these two symbolizing emotional shock and possibly issues of death come together, thusly...so I already had an 8th House leaning. If I were seeing loads of Jupiter and Uranus, then I certainly would have read more of a 2nd House meaning, ie. Money, since I don't have any rich relatives to bequeath anything substantial.

Re: Your "challenge"

Well,...if you give me quite a few securely dated events, I'll certainly consider rectifying your chart in public Wink and showing the appropriate Primary Directions, so that all can judge for themselves, based on the data presented, rather than any pre-consideration bias. (not that I would expect that from you, Paul, you've always appeared progressive in thought, so are my target demographic) Wink

Peace

James
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Paul
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Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1465

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atlantean wrote:

Yes, I am sure that I am the person that you are remembering. Smile Be that commendation or indictment. Wink


LOL

Not an indictment, sorry if I worded that badly!

Quote:

Well,...if you give me quite a few securely dated events, I'll certainly consider rectifying your chart in public Wink and showing the appropriate Primary Directions, so that all can judge for themselves, based on the data presented, rather than any pre-consideration bias.


My problem is that I don't know exactly how much information you need nor how accurately you need it.
Realistically this last year I can give you the exact days and in some places the exat time that the following occurred (in the last 12 months):

Got accepted for a new job.
Started that new job with a higher salary.
Moved home.
Started a relationship.
Ended same relationship.
Went on holiday.
Got made redundant.
Found new job on a much higher salary (the higher salary is noticeable)
Started that new job.

I can probably find out within a day or two other days that I've entered into or broken up with major relationships. I broke my arm at one point as a teenager but I woudl struggle to work out the day that this occurred. I could get the day I graduated from university or something like that either but I'm not sure that's personal enough. I could get the day I first started my first job in the industry I trained for though for example.
I'm not married and I've had no kids and have had no other major accidents so can't add anything more in that department.

I appreciate these may all seem trivial, but there big deals for me. My latest job offer came with a much bigger salary than I've ever had or anticipated having at this age so if nothing else something shoudl show up for that one. Using profections I had given myself about a fortnight during which I expected a modest increase in salary or a christmas bonus. Instead I got made redundant. I was a bit surprised, but then a few days later got a new job on a much bigger salary. I'm supposing something of primary directions (topocentric or otherwise!) would also reveal that. It's a jump in career and salary that I woudl expect to be forecastable.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2903
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

been meaning to respond, but have got caught up and might not be able to for another day... meanwhile the thread is getting derailed all the while this beautiful feature of the site is available for use... pm - private messaging!!!! woowho! try it out and hopefully the person will be considerate and get back to you... this way the thread doesn't get derailed with data not relevant to the conversation at hand... thanks!
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4960
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
..meanwhile the thread is getting derailed


Totally agree. It isn't about demonstrating the superiority of modern/topocentric use of primaries vs the classical approach. Equally, it isn't the place to get into into personal chart analysis to illustrate the alleged advantage of one approach to primaries vs another.

I suggest Atlantean start a thread of his own if he wants to use his posts as a platform for his preferred approach to primaries.

Mark
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3483
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is off topic, but I think it needs to be addressed now and again in order to clarify the Forum's policies.


Quote:
What I mean is... it is basically a Traditional forum. If some crusty tome gets translated, then many will comment on it...it will stay high on the list and be seen over and over because it will constantly be replied to or bumped.


I still don't understand the nature of your complaint. Bumped? How? A few weeks ago Tony Louis pulled up a thread that was last commented on in 2005. If he can do that, so can anyone else. Everything on this Forum is posted in chronological order. Last post is put up first. When something is posted after it, that goes on top. Chronology is the only criteria, not subject matter. Furthermore it's all done by a computer program. Moderators have no control over that and I would bet neither does Deb. This is the way it is set up and has been since day one.

Quote:
More (let's call them) non-mainstream techniques are likely to be read, but not nearly so often replied to... I understand that it is the nature of the forum, which is fine, but it does prompt me to want to be more vocal in the hopes that others can find the utility in these methods.


Anyone can post anything they want pertaining to any astrological methods. We have some restrictions as the the proper Forum for the discussion, but that was decided when the Forum started some 9 years ago. For example, we don't wish to discuss Chiron in the Traditional Forum. We have a Traditional Forum so that traditionalists can discuss traditional astrology without interruptions by people who don't care for the tradition. This is stated in the Forum rules. Those people are not discouraged from posting elsewhere. They can post in this section for example. There is always some overlap, but that's been handled nicely over they years.

If you advocate particular methods, post them with examples. It is the best way to generate activity. But if you can't generate that activity, it's because no one is interested - not because of any policies on the site. The responsibility for generating interest is up to the poster. No one has any obligation to read and comment on anything posted. I'll give you a hint though, your posts are more likely to generate interest if you avoid phrases like "crusty tomes" which is clearly intended to insult. Speaking for myself only, when I see expressions like that, I either stop reading or only continue because of my responsibilities as moderator to see that the posts are civil and appropriate. I have no more interest in the topic or the author.
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tom,

Re: "I still don't understand the nature of your complaint..."

I said "so please don't take my comment as a complaint....it is merely an observation."

You don't understand the nature of my complaint, because it isn't one. Did you know what you were gonna say to me before you read my comment? It appears so...

Re: Non-mainstream as compared to Traditional

As I said, I don't in any way think anything underhanded is going on. The same situation would happen in reverse on certain other forums. [If you went on Noel Tyl's Forum and presented comments from Valen's writings that the Sun rules the nerves (as opposed to Mercury) or that Saturn is an indicator for homosexuality (when Uranus is much, much more prevalent), then you would get the same reaction there as I get here.] It is the nature of forums, generally, to directly or indirectly propagate their perspective. My point or let's say my INTENDED point was that these less-well-known techniques/approaches have to be presented conspicuously here so that they are even noticed. My point is not to hammer about the techniques, but to (as I posted) show with examples what is possible using these techniques.

Primary Directions (in one form or another) are traditional techniques. I do realize on a (mostly) traditional forum that to express revolutionary changes to that technique is not a popular stance. Still, the ideas are infinitely more important than deferring to what might or might not be popular. If you were in my shoes, I would hope you would do the same, whether I agreed with that particular idea or not. People aren't hurt by ideas, but everyone can be diminished by the censoring of same.



My advice would be to look at everything (in-depth) and then adopt whatever appeals to you and to leave the rest alone.

One other thing, Tom....don't tie the idea too closely to the personality of the messenger...they are two mutually exclusive things.

Peace

James
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello james m

You are absolutely correct.

On some forums, the discussions are organic and a thread that started as "Solar Returns" might end up being more a discussion on precession. What started as "a survey on indications of death" might mutate into "significations of the 8th House". This is the very nature of communication, of conversation. I realize that here, on such a large forum that all lines of thought need to be properly categorized. Additionally, I understand how these "other" ideas can work to keep the original thrust of your question in the background, rather than the foreground. With that in mind, I won't "pollute" your thread with rectifications and public display.

I must admit though, that in a thread that is about "Primary Directions vs Solar Arcs", it seems that the demonstration of a form of Primary Directions so that they could be contrasted to Solar Arcs seems (to me) very much ON TOPIC. Still, it's your thread...if this is taking away from you getting to your answers, then you are right, I need to do it elsewhere, in a different thread.

Peace

James
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Paul

[I am replying to your message in a thread of its own, in respect to james m.]

Peace

James
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mark,

Re: "I suggest Atlantean start a thread of his own if he wants to use his posts as a platform for his preferred approach to primaries."

Great idea. Done.

Sorry for the confusion/distraction. Wink

Peace

James
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4960
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atlantean wrote:
Quote:
Primary Directions (in one form or another) are traditional techniques.


I suppose one could say the same of much of modern astrology in terms of its basic conventions. Transits, and solar returns are equally traditional in origin.

However, a traditional use of such techniques is judged by how we work with them. Hence a precession corrected SR chart would not be recognised as traditional. Similarly, with primaries if we use a modern house system (Topocentric) and utilise minor aspects to mark hits this is utilising the technique in a different way from its original formulation. Delineation is also likely to be very different for many other reasons.

This is only really an issue on the traditional forum. Here on the general forum modern techniques are perfectly ok. The same applies to all the other forums. For example, over on the mundane forum where I moderate we have discussed the ideas of Alexander Marr and had posts from Isaac Starkman.

Its undeniable that demographically those with a traditional disposition tend to gravitate more to this site. Skyscript is generally regarded as the best traditional astrology site on the internet and many traditionalists feel they have found a home here. However, there is no kind of conspiracy going to remove other perspectives.

Excluding the traditional forum Deborah Houlding has never sought to limit discussion on the other forums to traditional ideas or techniques. So by all means go ahead and offer members more on your approach to primary directions in a new thread here.

Mark
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3483
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What I mean is... it is basically a Traditional forum. If some crusty tome gets translated, then many will comment on it...it will stay high on the list and be seen over and over because it will constantly be replied to or bumped.


Regardless of what you subsequently or previously called it, this is a complaint. You don't like what is happening and even asserted negative things that did not happen (bumped) to support your case. Do you pay attention what you write?

com·plaint

NOUN:

An expression of pain, dissatisfaction, or resentment.
A cause or reason for complaining; a grievance.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2903
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

where was i? lol..

thanks atlantean and paul..

a response to page 3 comments.

ed f, margherita and martin - thanks for clarifying my questions on placidus. it is interesting the history on the use of semi arc directions..

i seem to recall margherita mentioning in one of these threads about the older astrologers only using the angles and not concerning themselves with house cusps. do you know the history on this idea and if there is a time period when becoming more aggressive with directions to house cusps might have been introduced? perhaps this goes with the idea i have heard that the angles in a chart are the most worthy of our attention especially with regard to directions and progressions..

okay, i wanted to provide an example that might shed light on these 2 different techniques primary directions and solar arc directions.. i was looking at sigmund frueds chart - may 6 1856 630pm oribor czech... the time might be rounded off since the place he was born switched from being in austria to czech and is a small place, there are some questions over the degree of the ascendant due the collection of data on local time.. astro.com gives 7 scorpio 31 ascendant, while i get 10 scorpio 10 on my computer... i thought this wouldn't be a good example to use due this conflict, but since i had spent some time on the chart i am going to offer this anyway..

the discussion was around euthanasia and whether frued had the help of a friend to essentially end his life at the time he did.. so, this is looking at a well known persons death via these predictive methods.. he died sept 23 1939 in london.. i have done the data for pribor, not london although since i am a big fan of relocation astrology i see this as missing part of the equation as well... that 2 things now! rounded off time and location of event..

regardless, the primary direction that one immediately notes is mars directed to saturn.. mars rules the ascendant, while saturn is located in the 8th house.. for those who don't use the 45/135 aspects you will not be able to see how the mars/saturn transiting square in effect for sept 23/1939 at 29 cardinal is doing an exact 45/135 to his natal moon in the 8th as well.. but it is interesting to see this combo in the transit data as well on the date of his death.. not so related but the transit sun is exactly opp his jupiter which rules his solar 8th as well...

the solar arc directions are not as informative.. sa ascendant at 29 cap 56 is making the 135 to natal moon in the 8th on the same degree as the transiting mars/saturn square.. sa uranus 10 leo 21 is exact square the ascendant 10 scorpio 10 - 11 minutes past.. i suppose this could tie to end of life if one uses uranus as 4th house ruler to his chart..

what i found interesting doing this little exercise is how i could only get the primary direction of mars to saturn exact july 17 1939 using the semi arc mundane positions with the naibod key.. i couldn't get this using some of the other means of doing primary directions.

granted an accurate time is critical for angle data and aside from the discrepancies around the adjustments made for local time in this area that gives me different data then provided on http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Freud,_Sigmund site for his rising degree, i would probably discount the whole exercise until i sorted that out to my satisfaction more completely..

i will try to find some other examples where the data and time are more definitive.. thanks for all your comments..
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tom,

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

To me, it was not a complaint. A person complains either to vent or to bring about a change. Neither of those applies. I understand WHY it is this way, I was merely commenting on what I have observed. It is natural that it is this way. I have no hope for change on that front...which is not to say that the conditions here are hopeless. Wink Smile

Re: This Forum

To credit, this forum is very good at discussing astrological topics intelligently and tends to be a serious forum. I can't remember the last "my boyfriend is a Gemini and I'm a Sagittarius, are we doomed?" type of post. If I didn't think that SOME here would take this information seriously, I surely wouldn't waste my time. Responses show me that a small percentage ARE listening and ARE open-minded enough to think that all the answers aren't already discovered. I am a strong proponent of Topocentric Primary Directions because I have seen their utility and have seen some difficult charts brilliantly rectified using them (thank you, Isaac Starkman). [Wasn't it Lilly that said that the best way to properly rectify a chart is through syncing Primary Directions with Events? (granted that his Primary Directions method was different)] My foray into this method of Primary Directions began when I tested some of Isaac's rectifications with out-of-sample events. Seeing the symbolism and tight orb, I was hooked. The deeper I have delved, the more I have received in return. I do apologize if my excitement finds me getting carried away, but better to be passionately wrong than dispassionately correct. Wink

Re: Crusty old tomes

Yeah, that was a cheap shot. Thanks for calling me on it.

Peace

James
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2903
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is a shame more folks don't use this pm feature more often! especially when they are back and forth dynamics unrelated to the topic... oh well...
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