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Ruler of the 6th house
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juliana_angelova



Joined: 13 Apr 2008
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Ruler of the 6th house Reply with quote

Greetings all!

I wonder if anybody can enlighten me on a couple of issues related to the ruler of the 6th house. I was reading Henry Coley’s “Key to the Whole Art of Astrology” the other day and I noticed that whenever the ruler of the 6th is found in another house, this inevitably brings something negative to the house in question.

For example, if placed in the 9th house, “the native will be afflicted by sickness in his travels; and not only so, but addicted to deceitful and vicious actions.” The effects in the other houses are similar, in accordance with what they signify. Of course, Coley doesn’t fail to mention that essential dignity or aspects to fortunate planets can help.

Am I correct in my observations? Will the ruler of the 6th house basically diminish the quality of the things signified by the house it is in? It’s almost as if the ruler of the 6th picks all the nastiness of the house it represents and throws it at the house it happens to be in. What do you think?

I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Best regards

Yuliana
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GR



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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yuliana,

As I understand it, the idea that a planet brings the affairs of the topics it signifies into the place that planet is located in is a sound one. I do believe it is mentioned in Robert Zoller's course, probably sourced from Morin and/or Bonatti. There are probably older sources as well, but they escape me at the moment.
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juliana_angelova



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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:49 am    Post subject: Ruler of the 6th house Reply with quote

Hi GR,

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer! I find this topic very interesting and I hoped to hear other people’s thoughts, too. I am not familiar with Robert Zoller’s writings but I’m glad that somebody else finds the above idea a sound one. I am fascinated by Morin and I look forward to receiving the copy of his Book 21 of “Astrologia Gallica”, which I bought through Amazon a couple of days ago.

Here is a real-life example of the ruler of the 6th house in another house:

My 6th house has Scorpio on the cusp, so it is ruled by Mars. My Mars is in Pisces and conjunct the Midheaven on the 10th-house side. My career has experienced a lot of disquiet (in a sense, it was “ill” for a long time after university) but it is very good and stable today. I am attributing its improvement to the fact that Mars has essential dignity (in Pisces, it is in its own triplicity) and in a mutual reception with Jupiter in Scorpio (located in the 5th).

I suppose that the mutual reception between Mars (essentially dignified in the 10th house) and Jupiter (ruler of the 10th house and in every possible dignity of Mars) was ultimately helpful for 10th-house affairs. Of course, Mars is a malefic and showed its cloven foot at the beginning but things seem to have worked out for the best. My mother (also represented by the 10th) has never been a sickly woman (in fact, she’s healthier than me), so I believe that essential dignity and mutual reception have helped here, too.

I will be very happy if more forum members share their experiences of their 6th-house rulers on this thread. Do you think that the ruler of the 6th house has made the house it is in “ill” in one way or another? Do you think that essential dignity, or mutual reception, or aspects to the benefics or malefics have helped or hindered the outcome of the house in question? That would be interesting to know.

Thank you in advance.

Yuliana
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am fascinated by Morin and I look forward to receiving the copy of his Book 21 of “Astrologia Gallica”, which I bought through Amazon a couple of days ago.


Glad to hear of your interest in Morin. When you get the book, keep in mind the first section is theoretical and the second more practical. Your question would be answered, at least in part, in the second section in the chapter titled, "A Planet in One House Rules Another." or something like that.

It isn't just the 6th house either. For example the ruler of the 2nd (wealth) in the 7th (partner/spouse/lawsuits) would indicate money coming from partner spouse or lawsuits. I've never read Coley but he seems to be saying pretty much the same thing.

One area where Morin differs is the idea that the opposite house takes on the meanings, albeit weaker, of its opposite. In other words, illness can be seen in the 12th as well as the 6th. Death can be seen in the 2nd as well as the 8th and so on. So ruler of the 12th in the 1st could be seen as portending illness and not just other kinds of 12th house meanings. I used to reject this as out of hand, but if I keep it in mind when looking at charts, I'm not so sure the rejection of this idea is correct. Enjoy the book.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
One area where Morin differs is the idea that the opposite house takes on the meanings, albeit weaker, of its opposite.


Morin may have varied from his 17th century contemporaries on this but the same notion is also found in hellenistic astrology too.

Quote:
Each place, then, properly produces what it signifies, but also the nature of the place of the diametrical sign cooperates Book IV, chapter 12 The Anthology, Vettius Valens


There are lots of examples of this in ancient astrology. For example, both the 5th and 11th are houses associated with children in ancient astrology. Both houses are of course joys of the benefics. Similarly, both the 3rd and 9th are associated with spiritual matters and travel. Both the 6th and 12th have associations with illness, slaves, and enemies. In ancient astrology the 2nd house was known as 'The Gate of Hades' while in Indian astrology the 2nd house has links to death too which seems related to its diametrical opposition to the 8th house. In ancient astrology the 6th house was the house of enemies. However, the medieval tradition restricted this to the 12th with a notion of ''hidden enemies' becoming associated with the 12th. The 7th house only became the house of 'open enemies' in medieval astrology.

On a practical level I have found it very useful to delineate the 6th as a house of enemies in the way ancient and Indian astrology does.

Mark
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James E.



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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's how I see it:

Quote:
Both the 6th and 12th have associations with illness, slaves, and enemies.


VIth = acute illness
XIIth = chronic illness

Quote:
In ancient astrology the 6th house was the house of enemies. However, the medieval tradition restricted this to the 12th with a notion of ''hidden enemies' becoming associated with the 12th.


VIth = people that are out to get you, to destroy you. [overt]
XIIth = hypocritical people consumed by jealousy, envy, etc. [covert]
VII = any type of opponent: sports competition, race to leadership, etc.

james
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Morin may have varied from his 17th century contemporaries on this but the same notion is also found in Hellenistic astrology too.


He is the first author I've read that explicitly made such an assertion (opposite houses have similar meanings), but I'll be the first to admit, I haven't read them all. And I've read almost no Valens. But this is interesting on another level: the most frequent modern criticism I've read of Morin is that he does not adhere to the tradition. In some instances I guess, he adheres better than his critics.

Keep in mind Morin thought a lot of astrology contemporary to him, came from the Arabs and he gave them no credit at all. He is apparently unaware of the Hellenistic contribution other than Ptolemy. For example he believed the lots were of Arab origin (Ptolemy doesn't mention them except for Fortuna [and spirit?]). But here we are focusing more on his personal prejudices than his ideas. Regardless of origin, the lots do not fit into his natural philosophy and I suspect that had he known of their actual origin, he might have rejected them anyway.

Morin is always fascinating, and what I like best about him is that he forces us to think about our positions and why we believe them. We don't have to agree with him, but we should have reasons for our disagreements.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerd wrote:
Quote:
Here's how I see it:

VIth = acute illness
XIIth = chronic illness


What little we have to go on in ancient astrology suggests accidents are more associated with the 6th house. Fatal illnesses are more a 12th house matter. This reflects the fact that Mars joys in the 6th and Saturn in the 12th.

There is also the notion that Saturn is about ignorance or agnoia and in the deeper sense can be seen to reflect mental anguish rather than purely somatic ill health.

I think it is John Frawley who has also said that the 12th is the 'house of addictions'. That seems quite accurate in my experience. Here we see the medieval notion of 'self undoing' combined with the fact that pleasure loving Venus is the planet in Chaldean order associated with 12th house.

Mark
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GR



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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

While there is something to that criticism of Morin, with his rejection of much of astrological tradition, his best contribution, as you point out, is his rigorous logical treatment of astrology. IMO that contribution, especially since he often echos previous ideas in earlier texts, adds to the argument that western natal astrology has at its heart a deliberate logical structure.
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juliana_angelova



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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Thank you for the guidance. I was very surprised to receive the book yesterday afternoon because the estimated arrival was January 25 (next week). I am already halfway through it and have reached the section which explains how a house has an essential meaning (e.g. the 2nd is the house of money) and an accidental one (e.g. the 2nd as the house of death because of its opposition to the 8th). That is very interesting and something makes me think that it has a sound basis.

What else can I say? I was surprised to discover that Morin is not a fatalistic astrologer – on the contrary, he is against the fatalistic approach in astrology. At one point, he says that someone whose Ascendant and 8th house are ruled by Mars is in danger of a violent death but mainly because of his own Martian inclinations rather than circumstances beyond his control – in this way, Mars’s connection to the 1st and 8th is not the cause of the death but may become the cause of the cause of the death. I hope I cited this correctly because I have already read many pages and it’s difficult for me to go back and find the one that states this.

My only complaint (and I don’t mean to offend here) is that the translation could have been more accessible. I don’t know Latin, so I have no idea how the book sounds in the original, but my university background is English language and literature and I think that the text is unnecessarily complex. Some sentences (actually, very many) could have been better structured – oftentimes, the text is so dense that Morin’s arguments are difficult to follow. I am a professional translator myself and I know what it’s like to turn a specialized technical text into something that even my aging mother can somewhat follow (not at the expense of accuracy), but that takes a lot of hard work and thought about the readers.

One word that seems overused in the book is “determination”. I wonder if there was a better alternative. It is repetitive, unclear and confusing – at least, for me. Still, I am grateful that someone took the time to translate Morin because we may not have had any access to his knowledge. It seems that he managed to free astrology of much ancient clutter through a common-sense approach that is rare. Book 21 of his “Astrologia Gallica” is no doubt a great work and this can be seen even through the translation in question, but a more conscientious translation would have made wonders.

Yuliana
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juliana_angelova wrote:
My only complaint (and I don’t mean to offend here) is that the translation could have been more accessible. I don’t know Latin, so I have no idea how the book sounds in the original [...]

A one-word description would be 'dense'. Very Happy While I personally quite like Baldwin's translation, you might prefer Lucy Little's 1974 version, Astrosynthesis, which is more of a paraphrase and definitely an easier read. You can get a second-hand copy (hardbound) for under $20.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My only complaint (and I don’t mean to offend here) is that the translation could have been more accessible. I don’t know Latin, so I have no idea how the book sounds in the original, but my university background is English language and literature and I think that the text is unnecessarily complex. Some sentences (actually, very many) could have been better structured – oftentimes, the text is so dense that Morin’s arguments are difficult to follow.


There are a couple of problems here, not the least of which is that 17th century authors writing in Latin didn't have us in mind. Log complex sentences were the order of the day. However as a translator you will realize that once the translator starts to play with the text in order to make it more palatable to the audience, he or she is running the risk of misunderstanding the author's intent. You're observations are valid.l The sentences are long and complex and at times difficult to follow.

What would be useful if someone has sufficient confidence in their understanding of Morin, would be to write a text book teaching what it is that Morin is saying and doing. That way we would not be playing with the text itself. I know Robert Corre teaches Morin, but he uses the outer planets and some modern ideas. I'm thinking more of Morin only as Morin presented himself.


As for overuse of "determinations" please understand the critical importance of this word and the critical importance of Morin's theory of determinations plays in his astrology. It's not a just a word. It is an integral part of his philosophy and astrology.
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epurdue



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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:

As for overuse of "determinations" please understand the critical importance of this word and the critical importance of Morin's theory of determinations plays in his astrology. It's not a just a word. It is an integral part of his philosophy and astrology. [/color]


This is actually an interesting word when you think about it. If I was the translator, I'd use "determination" myself.

The Latin is "determino", which means define, set a limit to, and conclude. I never thought about it until you mentioned it, but the sense here is like the planet has "set its mind" to signify something.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I never thought about it until you mentioned it, but the sense here is like the planet has "set its mind" to signify something.


Exactly. One of the problems with traditional astrologers, and I include myself in this, is our obsession with technique. This goes several ways, i.e. that technique is no good this technique is fine, he doesn't use traditional techniques, and so on. In Morin's case the contemporary traditionalist notes that Morin doesn't believe in the use of general significators they way most traditionalists, do therefore he is anti-tradition. We tend not to look beyond that. However, if we do look beyond it we see that Morin is not so much abandoning a favored technique, but rather he is encouraging the traditional use of the planets in a more precise way. That precision is the result of his use of what he calls determination.

For example the Moon is women in our lives, among other things. Fine. This is true to a point. The Moon has an analogy with all things feminine, but, he argues, it does not follow that the Moon is all those things in any chart or anything we want it to be when it is convenient. The position in the houses determines the Moon's specific meaning and therefore allows better prediction. The Moon in the 5th cannot be our spouse, our mother, our female servants or employees, our sisters etc. It can be our daughter however. Therefore when a transit or direction or progression hits Moon in the 5th, we predict for the daughter or some other 5th house signification of the Moon. We can eliminate the mother, spouse, etc.

This is more than a difference of opinion. It is the heart and soul of his methods. Of course no one is required to accept it, but if we are to study Morin, we need to understand this.
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Yuriy



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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
I am fascinated by Morin and I look forward to receiving the copy of his Book 21 of “Astrologia Gallica”, which I bought through Amazon a couple of days ago.


Glad to hear of your interest in Morin. When you get the book, keep in mind the first section is theoretical and the second more practical. Your question would be answered, at least in part, in the second section in the chapter titled, "A Planet in One House Rules Another." or something like that.

It isn't just the 6th house either. For example the ruler of the 2nd (wealth) in the 7th (partner/spouse/lawsuits) would indicate money coming from partner spouse or lawsuits. I've never read Coley but he seems to be saying pretty much the same thing.

One area where Morin differs is the idea that the opposite house takes on the meanings, albeit weaker, of its opposite. In other words, illness can be seen in the 12th as well as the 6th. Death can be seen in the 2nd as well as the 8th and so on. So ruler of the 12th in the 1st could be seen as portending illness and not just other kinds of 12th house meanings. I used to reject this as out of hand, but if I keep it in mind when looking at charts, I'm not so sure the rejection of this idea is correct. Enjoy the book.


Well, I've learned that 2nd house often associates with death of other people (8th from 7th) and in practical manner at some forum were a lot of discussion about charts of murderers, professional soldiers, felons.
They have strong connections of 2nd -12th or 2nd-10th houses.
Like I have Mars in 10th ruling 6th and 7th in Aries and 2nd in Scorpio.
I've automatically came under suspicion whether I've killed somebody at war.I'm happy that I didn't.
But definitely most my incomes from professional field, Mars in 10th ruling 2nd. And I had some heart complication after flu when I was teenager, and that shown by younger years period of time, indicated by 1st quadrant where Mars located in 10th, while Mars ruling 6th.
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