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Questions on the valens text -riley translation
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Questions on the valens text -riley translation Reply with quote

i am fairly early in this book and am confused by his comments such as 'if saturn is on the right' or 'if mars is square and on the right', or 'if jupiter is trine to the right'....'saturn square sun and on the left'...........etc. etc.

is he describing oriental or occidental to the other planet? or?
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: valens comments about planets in the right or left Reply with quote

The planet on the right (the dexter end of the aspect) is the one rising before the other. In a square aspect, the planet at the dexter end (in the 10th sign from the other one, counting inclusively along the zodiac) is said to dominate over the planet at the sinister end (in the 4th sign). Firmicus uses the same terminology.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks martin! i thought that might be the case, but wanted to make sure by asking... i haven't read any dexter or sinister in valen so far.. i am used to thinking of these squares as 10th or 4th, depending on which planet is where on the aspect, but the terminology right and left got me! i like the concept of solar houses where you do the same thing..
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: the place of accomplishment or ruler of accomplishment Reply with quote

here is another valens mystery - place of accomplishment...

ordinarily i would think this is some sort of 10th house relationship going on, but i can't quite tell.. sometimes it is referred to as accomplishment with "the place of" dropped off ..i am reading rileys interpretation.. i like the interpretation as it is easy to read, but i am left scratching my head on some of the use of terms like this one...

here is one example page 38 at bottom of rileys 172 page pdf file.
"if the rulers of fortune and of accomplishment do not happen to be in their own places,..."

any ideas aside from the obvious one - 10th?
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: the place of accomplishment or ruler of accomplishment Reply with quote

Hi sandstone!

sandstone wrote:
ordinarily i would think this is some sort of 10th house relationship going on, but i can't quite tell.. sometimes it is referred to as accomplishment with "the place of" dropped off ..i am reading rileys interpretation.. i like the interpretation as it is easy to read, but i am left scratching my head on some of the use of terms like this one...


If you're scratching your head, is it really easy to read? Wink

That does sound like a translation of praxis, so you're probably right at assuming accomplishment meaning the 10th. Fortune is most likely relating to the Lot of Fortune.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi gabe,

i find the same thing happens when i scratch other parts of my body too! the whole screen or book shakes, lol... thanks for your comments!

fortune is definitely pof, of that i am clear, but the way this term accomplishment gets tossed around isn't as easy to decipher..

tom, if you are reading this can you change the thread title to : questions on the valens text -riley translation..... that way i or others can continue to fire off questions on some of the valens text... thanks!
james
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello James,

If you turn to page 35, section 20K;21P Book II (Riley' Translation of course) under the title: The 11th Place <Relative> of Fortune and its Influence on Prosperity.
Valens explained what Riley translates as "Place of Accomplishment" as follows:

We have found the 11th Place <relative> of Fortune to be the Place of Accomplishment, the
bestower of property and goods, especially if benefics are in this Place or in aspect.


So, if Riley is consistent, place of accomplishment is 11th sign from Lot of Fortune wherever the term "place of accomplishment" appears!

The same place is translated as "place of acquisition" or "acquisitive place" by Robert Schmidt (see Book II, Chapter 21, which is the parallel chapter to Riley's transation above).
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's my understanding of the term too - there is a little about this at the end of this short item on Valen's approach to wealth:
http://skyscript.co.uk/wealthvalens.html
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin and deb - thanks! and thanks for changing the title of the thread as i figured i would hold off asking more questions til it changed..
i must have been dosing off and missed that on page 35! wouldn't be the first time.. thanks again.. james
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GR



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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi astrojin!

Hmm, not sure that Accomplishment is a good translation of the term περιποιητικόν. The lexicon gives the following meanings: able to procure, productive; grasping; indicating the procuring of; wealth-bringing (though that last one is marked Astrological, and I've developed healthy suspicion for those lexicon entries. Have to blame Schmidt for that). Acquisitive does seem like a decent synonym for grasping/procuring, though I like grasping as it's a little more lively.

The verb περιποιέω that περιποιητικόν appears to derive from does have a meaning of achieve along with others like procure, secure, acquire. "cause to remain over and above". So that might be where Riley chose it, if not why.
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astrojin



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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi GR,

I agree! I think Schmidt's translation seems better (not because I know Greek!), it seems to be more consistent to what 11th sign from Lot of Fortune seems to mean. I feel that the term accomplishment should probably be assigned to 11th if not 10th(?) from ascendant sign. How I wish Valens would simply compare and contrast the house meanings relative to the "cosmic" ascendant and "genethlialogocal" ascendant!
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin wrote:
Hi GR,

I agree! I think Schmidt's translation seems better (not because I know Greek!), it seems to be more consistent to what 11th sign from Lot of Fortune seems to mean. I feel that the term accomplishment should probably be assigned to 11th if not 10th(?) from ascendant sign. How I wish Valens would simply compare and contrast the house meanings relative to the "cosmic" ascendant and "genethlialogocal" ascendant!


Remember everybody that Prof. Riley writes the following about Vettius Valens Anthologiai text: "What you find here is a preliminary translation completed in the 1990’s"

james
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"just precedes an angle"
this gets said a lot in the book.. is valens talking 12th house here? "goes before" is how i understand precede... or is he talking a planet above the horizon, as opposed to before the horizon headed up? or? ideas anyone?
thanks...
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regard to the translation 'place of accomplishment', Riley - for his own reasons or to follow convention - uses the same term as that used by Neugebauer and Van Hoesen in Greek Horoscopes. For example on page 103 the text reads "For the ruler of the lot of Fortune was found in the (11th) locus of accomplishment,* in apoklima and in aspect with Saturn".

*The footnote reads: "counted from Scorpio, the Lot of Fortune".

James, 'to precede' is to rise before, (the opposite of succeed) - so if a planet is positioned in a place that precedes the angle it is positioned in a cadent house. The word cadent means fallen, i.e., that the stars and planets in that place have already coccupied the angular position and have now fallen away from it. Coversely, succeedent places are those that rise after the angles and are succeeding by diurnal motion to the places of power (like a prince that will succeed to the throne).
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astrojin



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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello James,

Deb has "preceded" me in answering your "to precede" question!

Just for your info:

Angular: 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th house
Succedent: 2nd, 5th, 8th and 11th house
Cadent: 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th house

Angles (angular) = Pivot (pivotal) - Schmidt's trans. = Stakes (Ben Dykes) = Cardines (David Pingree in Carmen Astrologicum)

Succedent = post ascensional = "to succeed"

Cadent = decline = fallen (better not use this because fallen is better reserved for signs opposite exaltation = "to precede" (why not call this the precedent house? because we have succedent!!!

Warning:
Medieval astrologers refer to "cadent from the angles" for 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th houses and "cadent from ascendant" for houses in aversion to ascendant viz. 2nd, 6th, 8th and 12th.
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