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Reference for Mundane Horoscopes

 
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VassilisP



Joined: 21 Jan 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Athens, Greece

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:50 am    Post subject: Reference for Mundane Horoscopes Reply with quote

Hello...

i'm doing a paper for my astrological studies and i was asked to provide references to the the claim that for mundane horoscopes, if the time is unknown we best pick 00:00 time for casting the chart. Although this is common, nobody i've asked really knows who said this first. You have any information about this? A bibliography maybe? Or some astrologer in specific you know made the argument about the legislation time?

Thank you in advance...
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amelia



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 400
Location: Wales

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I presume when you say mundane you mean country charts since ingresses etc are exact times? If so, I've never seen a reference of someone stating this as a deafult rule. Indeed I wasn't aware that 0.00 hrs was standard for country charts in general.

However, having said that, there are many cases where it is a legal reality, primarily for Coporation charts but also for many countries:

Corporation charts in UK (and Europe maybe?) use 00.00 because that is the legally enforceable effective time of incorporation ( regardless of the exact time). So for these it is not so much a reference to someone's statement but a reference to a legal fact.

The same does not apply in USA, though, where apparently the legal effective incorporation time is midday.

Going back to country charts, there are a large number of independence charts that use 00.00 because the transfer of power date was determined in advance by the colonial 'parent' country passing a law and thus legally transfer takes place at 00.00. Again this is a matter of fact rather than an astrological convention. Interestingly though, it is arguable that the time of transfer is 00.00 in the 'parent' country and not the actual local time; but I presume there is a symbolism to the local time which works too.

The same applies for formation of unions of states etc- again because the date is determined in advance by a legal act which specifies the date and so it is therefore effective from 00.00.

For other country charts, however, where there is no know time for formation of a state, I am not sure there is a convention of using 00.00. In fact I have seen most such charts set for mid-day - But I've always assumed this is just to take an average of likely times as one might for an natal birthtime.

I hope that helps even if it doesn't give you exactly what you were looking for
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VassilisP



Joined: 21 Jan 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Athens, Greece

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Amelia, for explaining that, but what's actually needed is a specific refefence to a bibliography actually. The arguments you present are a thesis which probably has been explained at some point; was it Alan Leo? Was it Nick Campion? Someone should have presented these arguments historically...
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amelia



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well not Campion as he implies he mostly considers proclamation charts more important than legal. However in the intro to 'World horoscopes' he says that the major shift in mundane astrology came in about 1939 vis Charles Carter and that ' any opinion expressed by him achieved widespread currency' so you could try any of Carter's articles around that time and Carter's 'introduction to political astrology.'

Other than that I can't help you any further - I've always stuck with the UK legal fact (since I recalled it from doing Company law 30 years ago) and assumed that was why other's did but as you point out that's my thesis and I never checked it out - thank heavens I wasn't trying to answer to any academics !!
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

I'm posting to agree with Amelia's comments above.

VassilisP wrote:
Someone should have presented these arguments historically...

Hmmm.

Newspapers generally quote when laws come into effect for things like alcohol consumption or smoking bans or foxhunting bans so these things can be known without 'someone should have presented these arguments historically'. The legislation can also be read online these days, so it's no longer a 'thesis' or 'argument' to work from this knowledge -- we have direct access to legislation of so many countries, and many of them have research libraries that have historical records.

Remember that the general public mostly don't take an interest in the exact times when countries come into being, and as for astrologers, mundane astrology has not been the main focus of interest for most astrologers in recent times and in the past techniques such as 'national charts' weren't where the emphasis lay, so nobody would go to the trouble of compiling and tracking all the many changes to international legislation, custom and practice into one or two handy places. If you look into it you'll see that when countries/dominions/etc were brought into being through legal processes these things were announced in newspapers and promulgated in official state journals, much as they are in our times -- for instance, Kosovo declaring independence. It isn't collected into a 'presented argument' by anyone in particular, it's just a journalistic reporting of a constitutional and cultural event and it often made/makes a reference to a legal promulgation or similar.

Moreover, laws about law-making, as well as entire constitutions which govern the law-making processes, regularly change so there is no set standard, and there are no generalisations. The field requires research and for research someone would need motivation and access, and before the internet most people didn't have much access and hardly anyone had any motivation to do it.

An example -- You will easily find lots of news references to things like when do new laws on alcohol consumption take effect just because the public find it interesting and useful. If you want to get 'proof' rather than news reports then you need to look for copies of legislation that state when laws come into effect. You could quote Nick Campion's book but it isn't proof, so it depends what you're looking for.

Since the processes of making legislation come into effect vary by jurisdiction, as well as through time, you won't find one catch-all reference.

Much as I dislike Wikipaedia it's a good place to start for outlines of how different countries create laws and the legal terminology they use (which helps with doing search engine look-ups), and useful links to narrow down to the specifics you're searching for. You might even find exactly what you're looking for there.

If not you could 'phone your country's legislative body and ask them to point you to the chapter and verse of how law comes into effect there. If there's a written constitution it might be in that, or mentioned in research papers written about the consitution and/or legal framework. If you have access to some kind of reference library it will probably contain legal reference books on constitutions and so on. Not only each country but each jurisdiction within each country, can be different, and obviously things vary over time so historic laws can be superseded.

As for the idea that "if the time is unknown we best pick 00:00 time for casting the chart." this is the first I've ever heard that idea, and it really takes me by surprise.

If I had read it anywhere or been told it, to be honest I'd immediately disregard it because it doesn't have any logic to it (not wishing to cause offence to anyone who follows it!).

Maybe it goes back to manual chart calculations -- perhaps someone had access only to a midnight ephemeris and so decided that 'time is not known, why bother calculating? Let's just use the midnight positions of the planets.' I can understand that. If you must find a reference for this advice to use midnight then maybe start tracking back from where you first read/heard it, and follow the trail until you come to what you're looking for.

I could be wrong but I sincerely doubt you'll find any references to the idea (i.e. of using midnight) in English-language textbooks. I can't speak for non-English-language textbooks. Midday is the one you'll find referred to simply because it fits with the millennia-old march towards increasing accuracy -- using midday is an attempt to avoid as much inaccuracy as it's possible to avoid, whereas using midnight increases the potential inaccuracy.

Regards

handn
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If I had read it anywhere or been told it, to be honest I'd immediately disregard it because it doesn't have any logic to it


There is a lot of logic to it. Astrologers are among the few groups interested in precise times. Legislation normally cites the day the new law or creation takes place and not the time. Therefore, since the day starts at midnight in most, if not all places, using midnight local time in the absence of something specifically stated, makes perfect sense.
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amelia



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 400
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
There is a lot of logic to it. Astrologers are among the few groups interested in precise times. Legislation normally cites the day the new law or creation takes place and not the time. Therefore, since the day starts at midnight in most, if not all places, using midnight local time in the absence of something specifically stated, makes perfect sense.


I'm afraid that's not correct Tom, for reasons of mathematical accuracy which I stated in my post.

Plus, legislation is created in a framework of other legislation which often (usually? always? I don't know, I haven't researched every jurisdiction....) stipulates when laws come into force. It's not a haphazard system where astrologers can say 'let's just use midnight' and claim logic without backing it up -- there are legal systems in operation. Where there are no laws stipulating when things come into effect, there are usually traditions of 'custom and practice' -- they can be researched. There is rarely a reason for astrologers to make up something of their own -- research into historic and current laws and conventions is possible.

If you look at it from the perspective of laws coming into effect at midnight then there'd need to be some understanding of the relevant jurisdiction to make that assumption logical and justifiable, otherwise it's just plucked out of thin air. It's by no means the case that laws come into effect at midnight in every country and at every point in history. Things were and are complex and had a lot of flux.

If the issue is not legal creations but things like proclamations, declarations, coup d'etats, de facto creations, and things of that ilk, then using midnight as the default when you only have a date (assuming the date is 100% accurate) means that you are risking being inaccurate by up to 23 hours and 59 minutes, whereas using midday as the default (which, besides using sunrise charts, is the only default I've ever seen) means you can only ever be a maximum of 11 hours and 59 minutes away from accuracy.

Regards

handn
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VassilisP



Joined: 21 Jan 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Athens, Greece

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear all, thank you for your posts, but my point is not justifying this or not. Just the references for the entire debate... In that sense amelia was helpful with Charles Carter.. it's a start...

Thank you all and if there is any further idea for references please add it in...

Best regards...
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3512
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vassilis

pick up a copy of 'the book of world horoscopes' by nic campion and take a look at the number of charts that have midnight given based on the passing of legislation... syria and canada are two that immediately come to mind.. it does goes into the legal transfer of power comments others have made... i don't think you are going to find any astrolgers referencing using a midnight time in the absence of a specific time.. in this regard astrologers will often use a noon time or sunrise time in the absence of a specific time.. i think you are asking for something that i have never seen in any book on mundane astrology and i have read a few... good luck - james
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VassilisP



Joined: 21 Jan 2012
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what you're saying. You're saying this is not a general rule, but used only when the state is born by legislation. Even so, however the reference is needed, even if it points to what you're saying is the correct statement, namely the latter one... I don't think i have found a reference from an astrologer even to that statement... Everybody takes it for granted, but noone knows who was the first to implement it...
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VassilisP wrote:
Quote:
i'm doing a paper for my astrological studies and i was asked to provide references to the the claim that for mundane horoscopes, if the time is unknown we best pick 00:00 time for casting the chart. Although this is common, nobody i've asked really knows who said this first. You have any information about this? A bibliography maybe? Or some astrologer in specific you know made the argument about the legislation time?...


Hello Vassilis,

I am very surprized that any astrological course would set you such a question. Not least because the whole question is loaded in misconception and error. There are lots of mundane books I could refer you to but you will look in vein for an author stating ‘without an exact time for a mundane chart use midnight’. Sorry for my lack of diplomacy but this is nonsensical. In essence there are no references for this notion because it is simply incorrect.
As my old law lecturer used to say ‘lets define our terms’. What is your understanding of a ‘mundane chart’? I think you are using the term in a very vague way. There are actually lots of types of charts used in mundane astrology.

Some examples:

1 Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions
2 Other planetary conjunction charts
3 Solar Ingress charts
4 Other planetary Ingress charts
5 Eclipse Charts
6 Pre-lunation charts
7 Event charts.

Moreover, as the most complex area of astrology mundane astrology can also involve other charts from other branches of astrology such as natal charts, electional charts, and horary charts. None of these charts use a default time you can assume as 00:00. So in the general sense the assumption you have been asked to research is completely incorrect.

I therefore think you need to refine the kind of chart you are asking about. It seems to me you are asking about a specific type of mundane chart. In particular what we know today as a ‘national chart’ for a Kingdom or Republic. I suggest you drop the term ‘mundane chart’ and replace it with 'national chart' as a sub-set of mundane astrology. Even then though it would be quite wrong to suggest the default time for all national charts should be 00:00 hours.

Historically, we do have coronation charts from the middle ages. We seldom know for certain the exact time of these charts. However, later astrologers have adopted the logical view that in the absence of a precise time we should use noon as the default time. Handn has already explained why for quite practical reasons a noon default time is much safer than a midnight time. For example if we consider the Moon moving approximately 12-13 degrees per day an average noon time is more likely to be closer to the actual Moon position and certainly the sign it falls in.

Secondly, noon represents the sun's highest point in the sky so symbolically one can say that in the absence of timed chart a solar chart makes most sense set for noon.

In that respect I also believe it makes more sense to use local solar time rather than LMT or even modern time zones times. A good example of this kind of chart is the 1066 chart for England. In such charts the Sun is exactly on the the MC-solar noon rather than clock noon.

As we move into the modern era we see states increasingly coming into existence by legal and constitutional process. An early example is the modern United States of America which constitutionally came into being on 00:00 on the 4th March 1789 or the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland which came into existence by an act of Parliament on 1st of January 1801 at 00:00 hours.

A major factor allowing this was the development of local mean time and later standardized time zones across the world.

As Tom has suggested constitutions or new states often come into effect today legally at 00:00. Its probably true that this is the most common approach adopted by states to new constitutions or countries. For example there is the example of South Sudan which was founded last year. However, it would be rather lazy to work on the assumption that any constitution can be assumed to begin at 00:00 hours. While this is generally the preferred operative time in most cases you do need to check the specific legal arrangements in each country.

Of course the process can be quite complicated when a state has formulated numerous constitutions in its modern history. For example, which of the 5 constitutions for France should be taken as the national chart? Should it be the first or last?

However, there is no consensus in the astrological community that national charts need to be based on legal/constitutional changes.

As Amelia and Handn have pointed out many modern astrologers use charts for official proclamation/declaration of a state. For example the most commonly used chart for the People’s Republic of China is based on a proclamation date/time. Similarly, the chart for the state of Israel in 1948 is based on a proclamation in the afternoon. Another obvious example is the chart for the American Declaration of Independence on July 4th 1776. Whatever, time we accept it certainly wasn’t midnight. Unfortunately, the timing for proclamation charts is often more controversial than constitutional/legal charts.

A third category of national chart is based on a date for a revolution or coup d' etat where power is passed by military force. For example a chart for Cuba based on the time the revolutionaries seized control of Havana or for the Russian revolution when the Bolsheviks captured the Winter Palace.

So I think the only way the 00:00 default makes any sense is in respect of the national charts which deal specifically with new constitutions/states. Even then though one needs to check the specific arrangements in each country.

The best initial reference I can give you is this article by Claire Chandler.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pdf/chandler.pdf

As Claire points one of the first astrologers to propose a 'national chart' for a country was the English Astrologer Charles Carter in his book 'Political Astrology' published in 1951. Before this astrologers would use the ingress charts for the four quarters. Carter justified moving away from this approach because of the failure of English astrologers to predict the outreak of WWII. Although, some traditional astrologers revisiting the pre-war Ingress charts have suggested the indications were clear enough and the problem was Carter's delineation approach not the ingress charts in themselves.

This whole issue generated a thread of its own on Skyscript:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3305&sid=6f2ec2336f4fc9a28abde20b99a775d1

As we are discussing predictions of WWII its worth pointing out in passing that Jean Hieroz (b.1889), a prominent French astrologer in the 1930s and 1940s, successfully predicted the outbreak of WWII in 1939 using the methods of Morin.

As you are looking for references in terms of books discussing mundane astrology I have now updated my long running thread on a mundane astrology bibliography:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6185&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Mark
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VassilisP



Joined: 21 Jan 2012
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the references, Mark... I'll look them over and hope to get the references required... If anyone else has further suggestions, i'd be greatful...

Best regards...
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helo Vassilis

For the reasons I and others have stated above I am unclear what further 'references' you are expecting.

Please check your PM inbox later as I want to discuss this with you directly.

Mark
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VassilisP



Joined: 21 Jan 2012
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, I appreciate your detailed thesis, but allow me to say that what i want is bibliography not debates... the subject is about national charts, as you figured out correctly (and i believe others did so as well). The initial question is who claimed that we can get 00:00 as a time for a national chart, if we don't know the exact time.

This initial question is already challenged and i already said, if that is truely inaccurate and the statement should restrict to legal charts, then ok, please help with references about that.

So, i think we' re already discussed all this and i don't understand what further a long dispute will bring, truely...

To make things short, I keep the references from your answer which i'm sure will be very helpful and the name of Charles Carter which you and Amelia mentioned. And yes, if anyone else has other references as well, i'd like to hear them as well...

Best regards...
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