skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

ayanamsha
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Sidereal Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1555
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Ayanamsha Reply with quote

delaforge wrote:
A point to clear up first, Therese. When you say 'the Fagan school', do you mean western siderealists in general (give or take the odd individualist who has gone off to plow her/his own furrow)? Or are you distinguishing between the Fagan school and other western siderealists?

In the past when I used the term "western sidereal," Martin felt that the term was confusing, so I now identify the Fagan school using his name. In the United States "western sidereal" has come to identify the Fagan school. There are no other siderealits except those who practice Jyotish. Cyril Fagan planted a tree, but the tree has branched out to individual practices. But all use the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa.

Quote:
I recall Fagan's idea that the first sign of the zodiac ought to be Libra - something about Librans being keen on hats (first sign = head)? That last part could be a misremembering.

Yes, one of Fagan's quirky ideas.

Quote:
Thanks for bringing me up to date on the Fagan system as it is used today. I'm shocked, but would rather know truth than not know.

You're welcome, Melissa. Today's Fagan school astrologers depend on the planets, angles and return charts in the analysis of birth charts. The main spokespeople for this system are Jim Eshelman (whose site has been referred to in discussions here), Ken Bowser, whose book is planned to be released soon, and here on Skyscript Dave Monroe has developed his own system of progressing charts.

Therese
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1555
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Ayanamsha in mundane astrology Reply with quote

Diego Alejandro Torres wrote:
Hi all.

Ayanamsa What is the most accurate for use in Mundane Astrology?

It is important to use a precise ayanamsa mundane astrology, for 1 minute difference can make a sign be given different topics Ascending mundi solar income, etc.. For this reason it is important to know what the ayanamsa more accurate to use in mundane astrology.

Please if anyone has experience in mundane astrology using the sidereal zodiac, please reply to this message.

Thank you very much in advance!


The ayanamsa what would be the most precise for mundane astrology would be the same ayanamsa that works best for natal, elective, and horary astrology. The opinions of astrologers differ on this. I've used the KP ayanamsa to relate sign ingress charts to large earthquakes that bring much loss of life.

Lahiri does not work at all for those charts. Because the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa is almost a degree different (59 minutes), sometimes those charts work fairly well, but the Moon will be a day off. The sign and degree of the Moon is a key to relating the ingress chart to the quake chart.

Otherwise I haven't worked much with mundane astrology. It would be a fertile area of research to test the ayanamsa, especially if we're testing sign ingress charts.

Therese
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
delaforge



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 131

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Ayanamsha Reply with quote

Therese,

You've added to my store of knowledge - in more ways than one.

I have been referring to 'western siderealists' in posts (and haven't yet been pulled up because of it). Will try to remember to speak in future of the Fagan school - which is, after all, the area of western siderealism I know something about.

Am familiar with Eshelman's work. Or was. Back then I rather liked what he was saying. Bowser is new to me. (I've been away from the area a long time.) Will keep an eye out for his book.

Melissa
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ken Bowser



Joined: 21 Jul 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the Fagan-Allen ayanamsha: it was honed statistically on disasters, i.e. so-called "Acts of God," more than rainfall. Further, work by Peter Huber at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology that was published in Centaurus volume 5, (1958) in an article entitled "Uber Den Nullpunkt Der Babylonischen Ekliptik," (On the Zero Point of the Babylonian Ecliptic) provided rough corroboration of the Fagan-Allen ayanamsha. That is, what Bradley arrived at circa 1950 was close to what the 1st millennium B.C. Babylonians used.

I often hear and read that the first bhukti of a new dasa often does not give what are called "full results." My view is that such less than full results must be due to the wrong ayanmsha, because in my experience, a new dasa (with Fagan-Allen) makes one's circumstances turn on a dime.

I, for one, use the navamsa and find it a useful supplement to the natus.

My opinion is that the acid test of the accuracy of an ayanamsha is not in divisional charts however, but in the transits to and directions of the angles of solar and lunar returns.
Ken Bowser
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
_________________
Ken Bowser
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 319
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ken Bowser



Joined: 21 Jul 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By directions I mean the movement of the horizon and meridian. With progressions you move the planets. With directions you move the angles.
Directing the angles is pretty close to primary directions which is done in the equatorial system.

No I haven't used tithis for anything that relates to directing because you can't direct angles in longitude. It produces a classic apples and oranges problem. That is, the angles are reckoned in right ascension but tithis are reckoned in longitude. To add tithis to a mid-heaven or an ascendant would be like adding dollars to euros. There is no such animal.
Aloha,
Ken
_________________
Ken Bowser
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 319
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1282
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum, Ken! The following is slightly off-topic, and might more properly belong in the Indian forum, but I'll pose the question here for now:

Ken Bowser wrote:
I often hear and read that the first bhukti of a new dasa often does not give what are called "full results." My view is that such less than full results must be due to the wrong ayanmsha, because in my experience, a new dasa (with Fagan-Allen) makes one's circumstances turn on a dime.

I presume you are speaking of Vimshottari dashas? There are a number of variables involved in calculating them apart from the ayanamsha. May I ask if your experiences have been based on the use of a geocentric or topocentric (parallax-corrected) Moon longitude?
_________________
http://www.martingansten.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Diego Alejandro Torres



Joined: 06 May 2012
Posts: 17
Location: Colombia

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a closer That the Ayanamsha Fagan in his article Huber published in 1958. The Ayanamsha to which I refer is the Ayanamsha "Chandra Hari".

The "Chandra Hari" Ayanamsha differs from Babylonian (Huber) for only 3' minutes of arc (three minutes).

The most interesting thing I see the Ayanamsha "Chandra Hari", is lift the astronomer-astrologer of India Mr. Chandra Hari makes his own Ayanamsha. This Ayanamsha also known as "Ayanamsha Mooladara".
_________________
http://www.plateriadat.com/talismanes.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ken Bowser



Joined: 21 Jul 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know the protocol for answering several posts, so let me say in response to Varuna, Martin and Diego that sidereal solar returns are based on the return of the Sun to its natal position, exact to the second of arc, but the angles that result from whatever that time turns out to be have to be directed in RA; so as with most astrological considerations, the ecliptic and equatorial systems are both employed. Modern astrologers have to a significant degree abandoned the equatorial system but the old masters did not. My experience is that the siderealists, in particular, fully embrace the equatorial system.

With regard to vimshottari dasa, I use a geocentric moon although I would be inclined to use a topocentric moon if the native were born with the moon on the horizon but I haven't experimented enough with that notion to know for a fact that topocentric gives better results for a horizon moon.

Regarding the thorny issue of ayanamshas, I'm strongly inclined to let that matter be settled as Bradley did: by observation. That is, the right ayanamsha makes planets angular on time, which is why I can with confidence from experience dismiss Lahiri.
_________________
Ken Bowser
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1282
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Bowser wrote:
With regard to vimshottari dasa, I use a geocentric moon although I would be inclined to use a topocentric moon if the native were born with the moon on the horizon but I haven't experimented enough with that notion to know for a fact that topocentric gives better results for a horizon moon.

Thank you. I personally always correct for parallax. Then there is the issue of whether to calculate dashas by longitude or time (modern authors and software seem always to go for longitude, but the classical texts mention both methods); whether always to use the Moon for finding the starting point (some texts indicate that the ascendant may be used); which kind of year to use (true solar, 360-day or some other variant); etc, etc. So invoking dashas to settle the ayanamsha issue is problematic.

Quote:
That is, the right ayanamsha makes planets angular on time, which is why I can with confidence from experience dismiss Lahiri.

I'm afraid I'm not really familiar with Bradley's methods. In what way can ayanamsha affect angularity?
_________________
http://www.martingansten.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 319
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ken Bowser



Joined: 21 Jul 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin points out that vimshottari dasa can be used both in terms of time and arc which is not a point that would ruffle the feathers of modern siderealists – we do the same thing in some instances; but if in addition, one can take the moon, the ascendant and perhaps other points of reference as well, it may be possible to make almost any system “work.” Furthermore one must wonder if time is employed whether the standard should be local apparent time, mean solar time, sidereal time or something else and if all this should be referenced to a year of 354, 360, 365 or 366 days. My point is that vimshottari should work in arc, in mean solar time, in Gregorian calendar reckoning if it can be relied upon as a dependable tool and not as a form of sometimes efficacious exotica. It is true then as Martin states that Vimshottari dasa is problematic for addressing the ayanmasha question. I agree. It’s the least important point among the issues that have at least some merit with regard to the ayanamsha issue. I brought it up because I have never once seen vimshottari dasa using the Lahiri ayanamsha work on time, that is, at a change of dasa; and as a professional astrologer whose bills are paid entirely via astrology, I’m anxious to know what I can depend on as a practical tool. My experience is that vimshottari dasa using the Fagan-allen ayanamsha puts the right dasa and bhukti in play that correspond to what’s happening in somebody’s life.

The more significant ayanamsha issue relates to angularity. First, it’s important to note that all the ancient (western) masters emphasize that angular planets have great power – more power than planets remote from the angles; and by angles I mean the horizon and meridian, not merely the sign on the ascendant but the degree of the ascendant; and definitely not the tenth from the first but the meridian which is most often in the Indian eighth, ninth, tenth or eleventh equal houses, although at some latitudes, times of the year and sidereal times the meridian can be in the equal house seventh or twelfth houses. A body, either star or planet, is angular if it’s in or near the horizon or the meridian.

Here then is the issue: ingresses don’t happen at the same time if different ayanmashas are employed. I’ll use as an example the sort of thing that Don Bradley (died 1974) would have used in his study to determine what the ayanamsha had to be in order for events to work on time. His determination that Spica, the alpha star in Virgo, was at 29 Virgo 06’ 05” for the epoch A.D. 1950.0 was fairly closely corroborated several years later by Peter Huber, independently in 1958 (see earlier post about “Uber Den Nullpunkt Der Babylonishen Ekliptik”). As far as I know there was no contact between Huber, Fagan and Bradley before Huber’s article appeared although I would expect some afterward (but don’t know that for a fact).

Siderealists use the cardinal ingresses of the sun and moon quite a lot in mundane work. The most important of the cardinals is the ingress into Capricorm possibly because the zero degree of Capricorn is in the neighborhood of the solar apex. The example used here is the Indian Ocen earthquake/tsunami on December 26, 2004 that killed a quarter of a million people. The data for the quake are from the website of the United States Geological Survey. The coordinates of the epicenter of the undersea rupture are 3 N 17’ 53” and 95 E 46’ 44”. The time of the quake was 0:58:50 GMT on 12/26/2004.

The Capricorn Lunar Ingress that covers this period with respect to the Fagan-Allen ayanamsha began on December 14, 2004 at 7:51:45 am GMT off the coast of Sumatra for the coordinates listed above. All sidereal ingresses that cover the sidereal month are 27.32166 days long. They cover the transit of the moon over the same star twice. The 12/14/2004 Capricorn Lunar Ingress (Caplunar) has 0 Capricorn 17’ in the M.C. with the Moon in 0 Capricorn 00’ 00”. This is called the “ecce homo” (“behold the man”) configuration because when it happens to a person, all eyes are on the native for good or ill – depending on what else is in play – or, if not a person, ecce homo points to a place that gets a lot of attention during the course of the sidereal month. The mid-heaven of this chart holds 19h 48m 10s of sidereal time. The Right Ascension of the Apparent Moon has 19h 50m 59s, so while the moon appears to be slightly into the western 9th house in terms of its longitude, it is actually slightly east of the meridian but in any case the moon is dead angular, less than three quarters of a degree in RA and 17 minutes in celestial longitude from the M.C. in its detriment, Capricorn. Saturn in this Caplunar is in the I.C. at 7h 52m 42s in its detriment, Cancer. It is more convenient to speak of Saturn in terms of its RAIC: 19h 52m 42s. Saturn is 4m 32s of RA and 1 degree and 5 minutes from the Caplunar I.C. in longitude as this ingress gets underway.

At the moment of the earthquake that produced the tsunami on 12/26/2004 transiting Saturn, which was retrograde, had RAIC 19h 49m 22s which put it only 1m 12s of RA from the Caplunar IC (which is just slightly more than a quarter of a degree). The numbers come from Janus, a very good general purpose astrological program. Using my old version of Solar Fire gives a difference of 32 seconds of RA between transiting Saturn and the I.C. of this Caplunar (because it gives a slightly different moment for the inception of the Caplunar). Thirty-two seconds is almost within the limits of the location uncertainty from the U.S.G.S. for the coordinates of the epicenter. The transiting moon for the quake was 3 Gemini 23’ (Fagan-Allen) which was only 8 minutes of celestial longitude from the exact sesquiquadrate to the Caplunar moon and only 28 minutes of celestial longitude from the sesquiquadrate to transiting Neptune, which may be construed as the right symbolism for a water-borne disaster. Furthermore transiting Mars was at the moment of the rupture only 28 minutes of celestial longitude from the quincunx to the Caplunar ascendant using Janus (closer with Solar Fire). The principal player in this, of course, is Saturn. The Saturn-Caplunar Moon opposition through the meridian of the rupture pinpoints the area where the problem lies.

The Caplunar Ingress using the Lahiri ayanamsha began at 6:27:25 am GMT on 12/14/2004. It has nothing angular nor are there any transits to the angles for the quake nor directions of Caplunar angles to planets for the event. The Moon-Saturn opposition is remote from the Lahiri meridian of the quake site. The moon is 18 and a half degrees east of the Lahiri M.C. and Saturn is more than twenty degrees to the west of the Lahiri IC in this Caplunar. The Lahiri Caplunar shows absolutely nothing that suggests the epicenter of this event was ripe for trouble unless one considers that the Sun arrives at the Caplunar MC on the day after the quake, the 27th as significant. But I I don’t see how it is significant since the event was demonstrably on the 26th. Therefore the sun transit of the Lahiri M.C. on the 27th is very likely artifact. The quake was timed by the transit of Saturn into the Fagan-Allen Caplunar I.C. and the lunar configurations with Neptune.
It is just this kind of work that produced a fit between what the ancient Babylonians did and what Bradley and Fagan figured out that they had to have been doing. It is also why when people take issue with Fagan-Allen or try to disparage it as somehow less “spiritual” (??) than Lahiri, or any of the other Indian ayanamshas, that western siderealists want to know what can be trotted out against it that has some kind of solid basis like the one advanced here.
Ken Bowser
Minneapolis, Minnesota
_________________
Ken Bowser
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1282
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, you are speaking of angularity in sign ingress charts. That will of course vary with the ayanamsha employed. (My only quibble would be that when you say 'siderealists use...', you mean only modern western siderealists -- the Fagan school, in fact.)

Ken Bowser wrote:
My point is that vimshottari should work in arc, in mean solar time, in Gregorian calendar reckoning if it can be relied upon as a dependable tool [...] My experience is that vimshottari dasa using the Fagan-allen ayanamsha puts the right dasa and bhukti in play that correspond to what’s happening in somebody’s life.

This may be less clear-cut than it first seems, as different astrologers may have somewhat different views on what would be the 'right' planetary period for a given event. In my own chart, Fagan-Allen gives results that in my opinion are almost humorously off (even more so when not correcting for parallax): marriage in the period of 12th-house planets, promotions in the period of 8th-house planets, etc. Krishnamurti with parallax, on the other hand, works very well. But there is no point arguing over different experiences.
_________________
http://www.martingansten.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 319
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Sidereal Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated