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Mystery Chart Exercise March 3 2012
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:

I hadn't even noticed until now that Mercury is in strong aspect to the MC and Venus too (MC at 21 Pisces, Venus 23 Cap, Mercury, 24 Scorpio)

FYI, this is what Ptolemy says in his 4th book of the Tetrabiblos (from Ashmand's ed because it was easy to grab the text off the web):

Quote:
Further, should it happen that two arbiters of employment may be found together, and provided they should be Mercury and Venus, they will then produce musicians, melodists, and persons engaged in music, poetry, and songs.


This is one of the main reasons I chose chart 1 for the musician actually
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brubeck’s temperament is strongly phlegmatic. Astrology is not politically correct. Some temperaments are easier to work with than others. Dorian Greenbaum who wrote a good book on the subject accurately noted in a talk, “The old texts say choleric and sanguine are good and the others pretty much suck.” Inelegant perhaps but effective. This does not mean that those with a strong phlegmatic streak are doomed to failure, drunkenness, or drug addiction. It means things are a little more difficult for them than they are for the others. No one’s birth certificate says, “Life is fair.”

The problem with the water temperament is lack of direction. Pour some water on a table top, then try to direct it all to the same place. It isn’t easy. The natural tendency is to run all over the tabletop. Brubeck’s early life did not promise a career, much less fame in music. He started college studying veterinary science (his father was a cattle rancher) and then studied musical composition before he studied the piano.

In an article on Janis Joplin, a strong phlegmatic, John Frawley noted that a person with such a temperament needs a strong malefic in order to help guide the life. Without that, he noted that Joplin would have ended up just another anonymous dead junkie. She had a fairly strong Saturn on the IC as does Brubeck. Saturn is comfortable in earth, and he is in a mixed mutual reception and trine with Venus in 7. Venus is in the domicile of Saturn and Saturn is in the fall of Venus. Although we often don’t associate Saturn with music, it is noteworthy that Brubeck once studied classical music and that seems to resonate with Venus – Saturn contacts.

Also like Joplin there is a Mercury-Venus contact. There is a tight sextile between them. Venus rules the aesthetic sense; Mercury rules articulation. This contact clearly shows some artistic ability.

However being phlegmatic Brubeck didn’t master reading music early on, and he didn’t tie himself down to standard jazz structure (if there is a musical oxymoron, “jazz structure” is it). Jazz is based on the blues (Saturn). The blues probably come from the slaves field call and holler they sang to try to overcome the monotony of their tasks. One group would sing the other would answer what was sung. Gospel music has this trait as well. The musical form, the blues was often structured 12 bars to a chorus or measure in 4/4 time. This structure still exists in popular music. Listen to the old rock ‘n roll recording “Rock Around the Clock” (1955) and count 1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4 and after 12-2-3-4, you’ll hear a musical change. Jazz is the same way. An outstanding example of a sophisticated version of this music is Duke Ellington’s “Main Stem” where we hear the horns “hollering” back and forth at each other in 4/4 time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r65Q8LtJDTI

Brubeck didn’t limit himself to that structure. Listen to Take Five again or try Blue Rondo A La Turk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc34Uj8wlmE

Is that jazz? Probably, but this isn’t a music discussion. The point is that Brubeck, the phlegmatic, took jazz in different directions much like our water on the table example. He used the water in his chart most constructively – far more constructively than Janis Joplin, which is why Brubeck is still alive at age 92 and Joplin, born 22 years after Brubeck, died at 27.

His significator of the manners is Mars. I can’t see how another planet could squeeze in there. Maybe someone else can. Mars is not real well placed in this chart In Aquarius, in the 8th house with no contact with his domicile ruler, and without a lot of choler in the chart, what is there for Mars to do? Plus there is the conflict of being predominantly phlegmatic and have Mars as the significator of manners. If I were to dabble in the psychology of this man, I might see this as an internal struggle. He was a soldier in WWII, but he avoided (whether by design or if he was ordered to do so, I don’t know) the Battle of the Bulge by playing the piano for a Red Cross benefit. He definitely does not fit Ptolemy’s description of Mars as significator of the manners poorly placed (“cruel” “rapacious” “pitiless”), but he doesn’t quite measure up to Ptolemy’s ideal either (“warlike” “contemptuous” “tyrannical”). But some of Ptolemy’s words do apply to his contribution to music: “bold” “versatile” “daring” “self confident.” He made the most of his Mars, and the most of his temperament.
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kate p



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"I hadn't even noticed until now that Mercury is in strong aspect to the MC and Venus too (MC at 21 Pisces, Venus 23 Cap, Mercury, 24 Scorpio)"

Yes, this was one of my main reasons for choosing the chart as well.
It's not just Venus alone but a good dose of Mercury / Venus that would be necessary for musical ability - and the strong Saturn is important, imo, overcoming both planets (by sextile and trine, not a fussy square) which supports and gives mastery to the planets; repetition and practice = mastery.

Venus being the bound ruler for both ASC/ASC ruler (aka sect Light), the Moon, and Venus so strongly advancing on an angle and having dignity at both ASC and MC (as stated in my response below) are the other main reasons.

I did point out that Mercury strongly trines MC, and, I think rather importantly, is at the midpoint of (and so receives a strong *degree-based* sextile from both the planets on angles) Venus and Saturn.

I think that trine - Jupiter overcoming Venus, is rather important too.

Quote:
Venus, planet most important for artistry, is in a stake and is strongly advancing on an angle (DC). She has dignity at both the MC and ASC, and is also overcome by Jupiter (and Saturn, her dispositor) by a very benefic trine!

The ruler of the Ascendant, the Moon, sees the Ascendant by a strong trine from the 5th. In a way this indicates that the person sees what he wants and how to pursue it, or, simply, what is important in the life are 5th matters: creativity, etc.
The ASC and the Moon are also in the bound of Venus.

Saturn, in the whole sign 3rd place (communicating something), is also very strongly advancing on an angle (IC) and is the domicile lord of Venus, in addition to dispositing to the other planet that I believe is important for musical ability, Mercury.

Mercury, also in 5th, trines the MC strongly, and actually sits at the nearly exact midpoint of the two major planets advancing on angles, Venus and Saturn. To me, this may be about giving form via a kind of communication, or through the hands, to an artistic endeavor or practice (VE SA).


I had a lot of fun. I look forward to more of these! Thanks.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that there will always be more than one career indication but Vocation or calling is different.

Gandhi and Nehru were qualified Barrister but found their calling in politics. The Indian independence movement was full of Lawyers qualified in U.K.
Compulsory service in the army makes every one Martian but they go on to do different things.

What was interesting was how usefully whole sign houses can be used in a horoscope and applying and separating aspects are used in traditional approach.


PD
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
His significator of the manners is Mars. I can’t see how another planet could squeeze in there. Maybe someone else can.

No doubt about Mars whatsoever, but I also think one should take a note of Saturn, because of a partile, superior sextile with naturally impressionable Mercury from the angle of the earth.
According to Paulus, this sextile actually has the strength of a trine(being cast across the equinoctial signs).

Goran
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but I also think one should take a note of Saturn, because of a partile, superior sextile with naturally impressionable Mercury


I agree. I missed the sextile since Libra is intercepted and using Placidus cusps Saturn is in 4, Mercury is in 5. That plus being in Mercury's sign and in the triplicity of the Moon, is ample connection.

Ptolemy is even harder on the native with both Malefics ruling the manners. except for his last remark "... on the whole successful in their undertakings." These planets tell us how the phlegmatic temperament will manifest. It will always be phlegmatic, but it will be expressed through the two malefics. This may be the direction the phlegmatic needs.

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james_m



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi deb,

thanks for your longer post to me outlining your thoughts on the charts and how you arrived at your viewpoint while addressing my question on the use of the nodes and the pof.. i fully understand why someone may post only a few words on this and i said so in my previous post "some folks here may be quite busy with many activities that discourage them from posting as much as me and i understand that too.." this is addressing the first part of your post where you seem to overlook what i did say about this by saying you're correcting me..

again i am repeating myself here, but the quiz was presented in 2 stages as i experienced it.. the first stage we were asked to identify the musician.. there was no mention of a football player or cardinal.. adding this information is actually quite helpful as i see it and definitely changes the process.. i was precluded from getting involved in the 2nd half as i accidentally stumbled on brubecks charts looking at charts of musicians that i have.. i appreciate your articulating your rationale for the 2nd phase of this quiz..

i want to emphasize a comment you made in your last post as i think it is very informative and what i do actually look at when not much is said. "saying more becomes less, because it takes the emphasis away from what matters most." indeed... when one examines margheritas or your initial comments much can be learned about what both of you view as the most relevant for arriving at your initial conclusion on which is the chart of the musician.. in this context the pof and nodes are not defining tools for arriving at this conclusion.. you state this in your last post here as well.. what i get from your comments now are planetary phase and strength, midheaven and midheaven ruler and planetary strength generally are the defining tools for arriving at your conclusion..

in response to your question to me at the end of your post "what was it you noticed in the charts and refrained from posting? Smile"

many of my observations are steeped in techniques that aren't traditional techniques which is the forum index where this challenge was presented in. not sure if it is appropriate to share these ideas on this forum, but just for fun i am going to share one that i think has some relevance. maybe it is not all that modern as the writer alexandre volguine was an influence on some more recent and modern astro authors of a book called planetary containments - (john sandbach and ronn ballard).. this idea is somewhat connected to the idea of besieged or what i understand of where the moon is at present - between mars and saturn..

if you look at brubecks chart you will note sun is sandwiched between mercury and venus - 2 planets associated closely with the idea of the artist.. if you do this for the football player it is mars and mercury.. the cardinal's sun is sandwiched between jupiter and saturn - 2 planets closely connected to religion as i understand it. as for mars and mercury having some connection to football players, i am not so sure, but a strong mars would definitely help..

the other observations i was making are definitely outside the box of trad astro.. i will share one of them on brubecks chart and it was one i was ruminating on before i knew it was brubeck.. this is based on harmonics and the 40 degree aspect which has a tie in to navamsha charts as well - 9th harmonic... the distance from sun to venus is approx 40 degrees while the distance from saturn to sun is 80, so the planets venus, saturn and sun come together in the 9th harmonic... if you use neptune as well and take a look at a 9th harmonic chart for brubeck you will note the venus/neptune/saturn/sun conjunction which brings the 2 planets i associate with music - saturn/neptune - together with venus and the sun.. i will stop at this.. thanks for asking and thanks for sharing more as well..
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James
Not sure if Tom will agree (he keeps us on our toes) but I think it’s OK to add in a few observations using modern techniques, so long as they are kept in proportion here. If the outers had been in the charts I’d have noticed them myself, but I’m glad we got the chance to look at the chart without them, and then add them in after. Thanks for offering your thoughts – always interesting to get different perspectives on charts when we are getting to know them well. I like to follow the logic of alternate approaches even though I tend to stick to my own.

Is it OK if I correct you, about where you corrected me for supposedly not correcting you properly? Because I think you are mistaken. I was referring to you where you said this

Quote:
still go with my comment about the pof or nodes being like dumb notes for some or many here.. a few folks commented on these points, but if you look closely deb never did

And yet I had said this:
Quote:
… what to make of that with Mercury in detriment combust the Sun. On the other hand it is conjunct Venus and trine the NN on the 2nd cusp.


You said I never commented on the nodes, but I did, even in my little comments.

But you do not have to apologise, if you do not wish to.
Smile
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Atlantean



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for that, Deb

I would not have known that (being relatively ignorant of who said what), but I am sure that it is born out of experience. As I said, Isaac has rectified hundreds and hundreds of charts and many of those have been prominent musicians. Mercury and Venus have been reliable indicators. What might not be known generally, is the importance of helio positions and the helio/geo connections. I overlooked them for most of my career, but Isaac's postings have often shown how the thing that the person is most known for is spelled out very clearly through those positions. If you have an interest, T. Pat Davis is the main source for this approach.

Again, thanks, Deb... and thanks (to all) for not jumping me just because our methodology is different. Our commonality (using Astrology to benefit souls) is much more substantial than our differences, even though our techniques differ in the main.

Peace

James
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mind the odd modern technique used in these exercises. I would put the outers in the chart if it wouldn't give anything away. I don't want the modern techniques to be the main thrust or used for competition. But let's limit it to what we can do with the three outer planets and maybe midpoints. No asteroids, hypotheticals or other esoteric techniques. I do find it interesting that modern astrologers are so uncomfortable with the idea of delineating without reference to the three outer planets.
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Yuriy



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
What about chart 3, who was a butcher before he became priest then a businessman selling cigars while being a priest and later a politically connected cardinal Smile

PD


What I actually meant is that whatever promised in natal chart might just newer happen, because of "dynamic" of firdarias or planet's position in quadrant, or triplicitie rulers of AC.
For instance, having strong Mars and Sun in 11th house as professional significators. Than 1st quadrant (10-12th houses) representing very earlier years, also by firdarias in day chart Sun ruling firdaria of age before 11 years old, and Mars ruling 60s years age.
And AC for instance in Air sign, Mars and Sun are not among triplicity rulers of 3 periods of life.
Meaning that Sun and Mars most active at "not so productive ages" - ether too young for prof achievements or age before pension, etc.
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Nixx



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Quote:
What I’d like to know is why Venus was seen as the significator for Music.


I'm not sure that it is *the* significator, because 'music' is a broad term in itself. In Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, Venus and Mercury together give good indications of music as a vocation. In the planetary rulership of the seven liberal arts, music is goverened by the Sun.

However, music is one of the things that Venus is strongly associated with traditionally. One reference I have to hand right now is Lilly's Christian Astrology p.74, where he lists the professions associated with Venus, and mentions as the first word in his list 'musicians'.



Thanks for the feedback. It seems to be the case with the Pianist that most folks here were arriving at their choice primarily through an assessment of Venus's condition in the 3 charts.

I don't assume necessarily that folks here are adopting a clear representation, if this were possible, or a remarkably erudite one of the various views of Traditional Western Astrologers. However people are often quite clear here on whose ideas they are more smitten with or influenced by. (I like this aspect of this forum, it makes it easier to penetrate into the various notions on offer). However, the leitmotif of the various posts being Venus pointed to a reasonably consistent idea that Venus was a common initial association with Musicians. This would tally with a number of 20th century theorists also looking at Venus for clues with this interest, passion and/ or vocation/career.

There remains the question as to why? One answer could be over the years Astrologers noticed a link between Music and Venus. And/Or because Venus was 'originally' given various aesthetic qualities, sometime or a longtime before Ptolemy ?, it was logical to link Music to it.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi deb,

we are going to have to call a draw and here is why.

i said you never commented on the pof and nodes.. you commented on the nodes but not the pof, so technically i think i am write, lol........

as for me commenting on the charts with more modern techniques - not until someone shows an interest in the first 2 i offered in the last post!!!
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi tom,

about brubeck and your musical comments.. apparently he couldn't really read, but maybe they meant - sight read.. the same was said of ellington if i recall correctly.. it is all relative.. sight reading is not the same as being able to read.. being able to sight read means someone puts a piece of music in front of you and you proceed to read it by playing it as written.. this is a difficult skill to acquire mostly left in the hands of classical musicians, with some jazzers falling into this category too, especially if they have been classically trained..

as for brubecks music, the racial divisions were still happening when brubeck hit the scene. he was white in a white record industry world and given opportunities that people like max roach who made a special focus on odd time signatures were not given in the same way.. it could be argued joe morello - brubecks drummer - was very much responsible for the take 5 song, but in song writing the credit goes to the one who writes the melody and harmony, not to the person who writes the rhythm. i can't remember if paul desmond - sax player with brubeck) wrote take 5 - brubecks best known piece or not, but it might have been him and not brubeck.. the fact is others were overshadowed by brubeck given some of the reasons i cite and probably more i am unaware of... while jazz comes up out of the blues, a good part of the reason for brubecks popularity was more to do with brubecks bringing classical elements into the music, rather then blues.. btw - call and response is african which is the root to the blues.. brubecks song blue rondo a la turk would be a good example of the classical elements combined with odd time signature - 9/8.. i think brubeck himself said he was influenced by folk music of eurasia which would include all of this - odd time signatures and classical elements. i guess that is why the use of the word 'turk' in the song title above.

kudos for brubeck and all he has done regardless of the historical background that helped pave the way for him to succeed.. i seem to recall him saying something to the effect when being put on the cover of time magazine for jazz star that he felt embarrassed that it was him when it should have been ellington, or something like that... thanks again for the fun astro exercise.. looking forward to the next one..
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The articles I read said he could not read sheet music. Whether they meant sight read or not, I couldn't say. More often than not the people writing the articles are not expert in the subjects they write about.

I read that story abut Brubeck and Time magazine, but although I'm sure Brubeck was sincere in his remarks he seems to be a bit naive about publicity. By the 1950s Ellington had been around for 30 years. By the 1950s big bands were out except for Ellington, Basie, and a few others. Small groups like Brubeck's were "in." Finally, Brubeck was news. Ellington was kind of passe (until the 1956 Newport Jazz Festival, but that's another story). Ellington's influence was everywhere, but his band was old hat. Timing brings fame and glory.

Desmond gets the credit for Take Five, but if you want a more outrageous story along those lines listen to this: If you look at Duke Ellington's discography almost everything we say he wrote is credited this way Ellington-Mills. Irving Mills was a producer. His name is on virtually every major Ellington tune from the 30s through the early 50s and maybe later. Mills was a publisher and no one was going to publish and credit Duke Ellington, a black man, by himself. So Mills, a white man, gets credit for the tunes and some money that otherwise would have gone to Ellington, a great American innovator and composer. Otherwise Duke Ellington is quickly forgotten. It was a rotten system, but there was little Duke or anyone else could do about it until much later.
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