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Mystery Chart Exercise March 3 2012
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Location: Delhi

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jupiter in Libra :

Mozart
Haydn
Bach
Handl

Is chart 3. a composer but not so famous.


PD
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Mark
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmm not sure how useful comparisons are. Still a few charts from my files with musicians with Moon in Scorpio:

Mariah Carey
Lady Gaga,
Katy Perry
Beyonce
Natalie Imbruglia
Johnny Cash
Bob Marley
Steven Morrissey
Bjork
Robbie Williams
Miles Davis
Julie Andrews
Alanis Morrisette
Barry Gibb
George Harrison
Gary Numan

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:53 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Regarding eminence I cant check fixed stars without the correct dates.


If you use Robson's positions, you'd be close enough.
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
mmm not sure how useful comparisons are. Still a few charts from my files with musicians with Moon in Scorpio:



I look at this list and see a number of pop stars, i.e entertainers, not folks who I would immediately classify as Musicians. So I guess we also need to define what is meant by Musician here.

What I'd also like Tom to provide, if possible, is something about motivations. i.e is this someone forced into playing the Violin aged 4 and ends up as a second violinist in an orchestra hating every minute of it, but needs to pay the mortgage, or someone for whom music was always a passion/vocation.

Some might say we should be able to work this 'type' out from the chart(s).
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He did not start out in life trying to be a musician. His instrument is the piano. He may be able to play others - I don't know.

As for defining "musician," in my mind it is a person who makes a living or spends a lot of time amateur or professional making music. That is probably all the chart can show. It isn't going to differentiate between Beethoven and Little Richard. Both are musicians.

But it is true that there is more in the natal chart than career, and I haven't given you much else in the way of background.

Also in case it occurs to anyone, the two charts of non-musicians were chosen more or less at random. My only criteria is that they not be musicians, although one or both may like or play music.
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Madeleine



Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Posts: 54

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still very much into chart nr 3

the north node angular, can also mean success.

But I think the position of the Sun, in opposition to Saturn, makes him want to prove himself, he's hard on himself, lack of confidence, so he needs the approval of the public (Moon in Leo).
This aspect could also mean issues with the father ? An absent father maybe?

I also think that Mercury in Libra suits the refinement of the pianist player aswell. Maybe he composes his own music ? He has a creative mind.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like these types of exercises..

i suppose since it is a trad forum, leaving out the outers while including the pof makes sense but not to me personally.. if morin was around today, would he use the outers? don't answer, as it will just distract the focus of this thread..

i can see all 3 being a musician.. i play music for a living and i know from looking at many musicians charts, there is no signature. they are as diverse as astrologers, maybe more so.. do they compose, or only perform others music? what type of music and on and on the questions can go.. may as well skip answering these questions too, lol..

the first 2 charts have ruler of the 1st in the 5th. i am using whole/sign houses for this, in spite of what looks like a placidus type house system. some type of performance music as opposed to another form of expression in music is possible with these 2 charts.. i am still not discounting the 3rd, but a different type of musical focus would probably be more likely in the 3rd.. the 3rd chart has ruler of the 5th conjunct venus and sun, so it is hard to discount it immediately.

chart 2 and 3 have mercury/venus conjunct.. this is helpful for an artistic mind and does show up in artists charts but one can't rule out chart 1 given the close sextile between venus and mercury in the chart.. this venus/mercury pattern makes a favourable connection to the midheaven in chart 1 and 2, but not so much in chart 3, no matter how i mess around with house systems in my head.

chart 1 and 2 are nocturnal, while chart 3 is diurnal. the sun/moon phase is new moon for chart 2, but last quarter for 1 and 3.. if we are to use the moon as helping point in the direction of career chart 1 and 3 applies to the mercury/venus more then chart 2.. see how complicated i am making this? lol...

as bizarre as it may sound, i think saturn does connect to music- saturn/neptune in particular, but that is for another conversation.. chart 1 and 3 are sun/saturn opp type charts while chart 2 is sun/saturn square.. venus connects to saturn the best in chart 1 assuming music is connected to venus and saturn on some level..

oriental planet consideration - chart 1 it is mercury, chart 2 it is mars and chart 3 is it jupiter.. i am not sure exactly where this leads me as it doesn't help out much either..


on the basis of my ignorance i am going to say chart 2 is my first choice, followed very closely by chart 1 for no rational reason, with chart 3 in the 3rd spot.. i liked chart 1 for a lot of reasons, but it doesn't seem to line up with my astro logic. moon in scorpio in the 5th in a balsamic moon all sounds right, but i am distracted by the jupiter/saturn conjunction in 3rd that doesn't make so much sense to me and with sun in sag in the 6th ruled by same.. still removing my logic, i really like chart 1!! venus in the 7th is always a strong contender for artist.. if i find out chart 3 is the musician i won't be surprised! this is too easy to mess up on and i figure i may as well join the group in forcing an answer out of myself..
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James hit on a couple of points that need a little clarification.

1) The main reason for leaving off the outers is to prevent less scrupulous people from figuring out the dates by looking at Pluto and Neptune positions, and from there figuring out who was whom. It wouldn't be that difficult. But this is a traditional forum and there is no doubt in my mind that we can determine lots of good stuff without the outers. When the time comes I'll post data for all three and we can see what, if any, help the outers would be.

2) I know you said "don't answer," but: I've been asked by quite a few people (relatively speaking), if I think Morin would have used the outer planets. Obviously I have no way to know that. I think he would be shocked to learn of their existence and the intellectually honest thing to do is try to reform his astrology to incorporate them, or ignore them. Since his astrology was so neat and self contained, my guess is he would have preferred to ignore them, but since he was a natural philosopher, that wouldn't be easy. They do exist. So who knows?

3) Hint. All three of these men were eminent in their respective fields. Therefore, eminence in the chart, by itself, shouldn't be unique to the musician. We would have to look for eminence in the field of music to eliminate the other two. I don't know if that can be done.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom,
regarding your part 1, who cares about less scrupulous people and how they arrive at there results? acting on the basis of what less scrupulous people would do seems bizarre to me, but obviously others will have a different thought on this.. my main thought is this - i want to see the astro rationale for the conclusions people make here.. if someone gets the right answer based on an alternative such as you suggest they miss the whole point of the exercise while trying to look like a genius, lol.. they only fool themselves and are the ultimate losers in life. as for your part 2 - i think he would have included them, but i like being contentious lol..

thanks for sharing part 3... maybe i need to look at the charts again..

without the data, i can't use my favourite astro tool - midpoints on a 45 degree wheel, lol..
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
regarding your part 1, who cares about less scrupulous people and how they arrive at there results?


A long time ago when I first started this, a couple of posts were so ridiculously accurate that they practically named the individual. It spoiled it for everyone else. I tried to ignore it, but it became too obvious what was being done. So I switched formats and with a suggestion from Deb, started doing it this way.

I'll eventually post the data or maybe the charts with the outers and without the data after a while.

One of the more intriguing aspects of this kind of exercise is watching people get close with their observations, even if they don't get it perfectly. It shows how astrology really works. I vaguely recall an old one where someone, but I can't recall whom, got it perfectly, but then drew the wrong final conclusion. The final conclusion was perfectly logical, but it did not play out that way in the life. It could have, but it didn't.

This tells me that we may be trying to tease too much out of a chart or possibly we aren't adequately using the tools at our disposal. Please don't misunderstand. I am most definitely not criticizing anyone for anything they say. This isn't a "guess who" type challenge, but rather to apply what we know to a blind chart with zero background information. That is damn difficult, and I am very happy that so many people seem to enjoy it and are willing to have a go at it. Keep it up.
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to know he is a pianist. Up to now I think I had been looking at charts mostly of vocalists. It occurs within the label 'musicians' there are three broad categories-composers, instrument players and vocalists. Still, , these categories are not necessarily separate and some modern singer-song writers manage to combine all three roles together. Even within the category of instrument player I imagine the skill of playing say the electric guitar, saxophone, flute, drums and piano all call for a rather different skill set.

Playing the piano calls for numerous skills. Learning this instrument takes a lot of hard work and persistence. It also requires a degree of dexterity and mind/body co-ordination. Classically, trained musicians also require the ability to read music.

As James said there is probably no simplistic signature for a musician. However, I am thinking a good Moon-Mercury connection would be extremely helpful for a pianist. The only chart that has that kind of aspect is chart 3. Although Chart 1 has both planets in House 5. However, would all the fixity there be appropriate? Certainly for single mindedness. However, what about the mental versatility and enhanced physical co-ordination required by a pianist? Is that more a cardinal or mutable quality?

Keen observers will have noticed I have now seen reasons to support all 3 charts. Confused Maybe it will all be clearer after a good nights sleep.....

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just funny but may be too many planets in libra helps the musicians with "Scales (musical)" Smile

Off topic but has anyone come across major and minor scales associated with astrological signs or any of the 7 notes associated with the 7 traditional planets.

Greeks worked on moods and scales.


http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-seven-modes-of-music.htm

And some recent-
http://alternatingfrequencies.com/2b4/index.php?topic=769.0




PD
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Good to know he is a pianist.


I think in the future I will more clearly define my terms. Mark is thinking in terms of a vocalist and now includes instruments, but composers and lyricists are musicians, too. In the US one of the best known musicians, and since I'm telling you who he is, he isn't one of the charts, is Quincy Jones. He's a composer and arranger mostly and no one would ever think of him as anything other than a musician.

I love this story: Jazz trumpet player Dizzy Gillespie once sat down and played a duet with a snake charmer. When asked why, Diz replied , "He's a musician ain't he?" Hard to argue with that. Hard to argue with his nickname, too.

Our chart is that of a man who is a piano player, but did other musical things, too. I doubt that would make a difference in the chart.
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the first chart is that of a music composer or singer/songwriter.
The Cancer rising is melodically very mellow and the ruler Moon in Scorpio in 5th is very creative. The Sun in Sagittarius is also pointing out to a composer (I've read a statistic that Sags makes the most of the composers in the world).
Venus in Capricorn can give a very good singer, therefore I would go with singer/songwriter.
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Vasanth



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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would go with Chart 1, Moon ruler of Ascendant in 5th, separating from Mars and applying to Venus (exaltation ruler of MC and ruler of 5th). Venus in sect and in good solar phase. Venus is also received by Saturn.
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