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Kidnap horary

 
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Kidnap horary Reply with quote



Hi all,
it's been a while since I've posted here but I still lurk occasionally and just read some of the amazing work you are all doing. I want to post about an horary question that was put to me by a relative of a woman whose husband had been kidnapped in Pakistan just over three years ago. Apparently he went to the gym one day as usual after work and hasn't been seen since. His car was found and shortly thereafter the family began receiving huge ransom demands, with threats of death to the husband if the money was not paid. Always they were contacted by an intermediary for the kidnappers who often claimed to have no influence over the husband's ( who I shall heretofore refer to as 'K' ) release. Certain monies were handed over I understand, but nowhere near enough, so the threats continued. The Pakistani military claimed to know where K was and that they had plans to rescue him (and the others he was being held with), but nothing ever came of it. The wife last had contact with the kidnappers in May of 2011. The dialogue was sickeningly familiar: "pay up or he dies". They could not pay and they have heard nothing since then.

So now to the present. The other day I get a telephone call in which I am asked to do an horary. The person on the phone is the cousin of the wife and he tells me that she asked the following question, which is in two parts:

"Is my husband still alive and when will he return?"

I looked at my watch and noted down the time: 12:15pm EDT on March 11th 2012, in Kinnelon, New Jersey.

The Ascendant is in an early degree - Cancer 1* 08', which I take to mean that we have very little information upon which to form a judgement ergo we should proceed cautiously. The Moon rules the querent (wife) as well as the missing husband, (CA p.328) and here the Moon is in a terrible state - in fall and in the Via Combusta. This of itself indicates that the husband, even if still alive, is in a pretty bad way. To pile on the misery, the Moon is separating from a retrograde Saturn, lord of 7th and 8th and applying to Venus, lord of 12th ( which also just happens to be the 8th house from the Moon) Saturn is also tightly opposed to the 'Part of Bondage'

I read somewhere in C.A. - but can't for the life of me find the quote - that if the Moon is applying to the lord of the 8th from her own domicile it was an argument that the missing person is dead, or soon would be. Couple this with the Moon's separation from Saturn, lord of the 8th - and the fact that the Moon is also lord of the 8th from the 7th (death of the husband ). Looked at from this latter angle the Moon represents his death and has recently separated from him (Saturn).

How confident would you be in judging K to be deceased? As you can imagine this is a VERY sensitive issue and I do not want to snuff out all hope if there is a half decent chance that he may still be alive. That's why I'm calling upon the expertise of the forum. I need your help. I'd also be grateful if someone could post the chart to make it a bit easier to follow the connections.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Cheers,
Pete
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Deb
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Location: England

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


Hi Pete

To aid the discussion - here's a copy of the chart. I'm busy packing for a flight so can't look at this myself but that early ascendant bothers me, coupled with the fact that the question is indirect. I've never done a horary chart for someone without speaking to the querent directly. If the question had come straight from the wife, and she had asked about her husband, it would have been a lot easier to have assigned the kidnapped man to the 7th house. But if you are taking the Moon as the main significator for the man, then the fact that his significator is applying to the 12th ruler, still showing indications of imprisonment, could be an argument that he is still alive.
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb,

first of all thanks for posting up the chart. I take your point about not getting the question directly from the kidnapped man's wife. I can see how it might muddy the waters a little but she is in Pakistan and wasn't able to contact me directly for some reason. The man I spoke with was her cousin, so this would still make Saturn the sig' for 'K' (7th from 3rd), while the unturned chart still sees Saturn as lord of the 8th.

That Moon bothers me greatly though. As the significator of fugitives and missing people in general, I would want to see a Moon that was carrying some essential dignity; certainly not one that is bogged down in the Via Combusta and recently separated from the lord of the 8th. While it's true that the next application is to the strong lord of the 12th - suggesting further incarceration - the 12th house here is the 8th house from the Moon and that fact keeps poking me in the ribs and won't go away. I believe the very least that can be said is that he has had one brush with death ( Moon lately separated from lord 8 ) and that he will continue to be facing such a threat in the immanent future. I see no signs of release.

Thanks again Deb' - as always. Does anyone have anything else to add?
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Janis Valkovskis



Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 526

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete

I would not turn the chart, even if the wife's cousin had been the very inquirer. There must be a justified reason for turning the chart in a missing person question. If the inquirer has some kinship or other kind of relationship with the person inquired about, the degree of kinship or relationship must be close enough. I would take signification from the fifth house, if somebody should be asking about their missing child, or from the fourth if asking about the father, from the seventh, if asking about the spouse or lover, etc. If somebody should be asking about their missing boss, I would refer the missing boss to the first house notwithstanding that in normal circumstances he would be the tenth house. The same way, I would not turn chart if somebody is asking about their relative's missing spouse. The missing person is the first house.

Experience shows the more we turn the chart, the higher the probability to misread the chart. It seems that the radical pivots provide the most reliable information.

Considering the Islamic array that a male relative is usually managing the affairs of a woman whose husband is missing, I would take the wife as the inquirer herself and refer the missing husband to the seventh house, ruled by retrograde Saturn. Even if the Moon rules over the wife, she does over the missing husband as well. Seems that Lilly's reasoning to assign the Moon to the missing one does not change if Cancer is rising at the time of the question and, consequently, the questioner themselves get the Moon.

Like all, I noticed an early ascendant which, in my opinion, merely reflects the fact that there is little information we know about the matter. A mute sign (Cancer) rising and both the luminaries occupying mute signs (Pisces and Scorpio respectively) aptly describe the lack of information. Early degrees of a sign ascending usually indicate that there is a lot to unfold.

However, seeing that Jupiter rules the hour at the time of the question and he disposing the ascending degree by exaltation (and regarding it) and being the lord of the sect light, I think the chart is readable and the artist may proceed with a judgment.

Whichever way we look at the chart (take Saturn or Moon as the ruler of the missing person), we cannot escape from the first house lord's conjunction with the eight's lord. It makes one reasonably fear the death of the missing one. In questions about missing, ( would not let pass the first house lord's conjunction with the lord of the radical eighth or the eighth from the person's ascendant (if there had been the contact between the foregoing by aspect, we might have still cherished hope him being alive) or the former's combustion. There might be a difference in reception, who in the contact received whom, i.e. whether the relevant first's lord received the eight's lord or the relevant eight's lord received the first's lord. The first's lord receiving the eighth portends a lethal outcome for the former, but a converse reception might keep the hopes alive.

I do not believe that the foregoing contact may refer to the fact that some ransom money was allegedly handed over to the kidnappers. In the chart, the relevant first and the second, and likewise the relevant seventh and the eighth, are ruled by the same planet, the Moon and Saturn respectively. For this to be the case under the relevant circumstances, I would expect some translation or collection of light, but not a direct contact, or else we should have judged that the husband would have received his wife's money from her hands.

The fact of kidnapping, in my opinion, is shown by opposition which Venus, who disposes Saturn, the ruler of the husband, perfected before entering into her own house Taurus. Although Lilly refers to strayed beasts whether they fled of their own or were taken away, I think that it would be proper to apply the same if we judge the fact of kidnapping. He says that the beasts fled away of their own if the domicile lord of the Moon separates from a planet, but if other planet separates from the domicile lord of the Moon, somebody has taken the beasts away. In the chart, the Sun separates by opposition from retrograde Mars who is the domicile lord of the Moon. As the separation has run almost out of the orb, it refers to an old fact. The same should be true, I suppose, if the missing thing is a moving one and a planet would separate from the planet which signifies the missing thing (as in this case, Venus has been separating from Saturn, the husband).

On can see that the Moon is applying, though by opposition, to a highly dignified Venus, who rules the twelfth house (which by whole signs is the eleventh), is herself placed in the eleventh - the happiest from the houses - and, moreover, applying to Jupiter, the great preserver and benefactor, who in his turn disposes the sect light (ruling over the third house - message), rules the hour and the MC. Jupiter rules also the twelfth house from the husband's ascendant (Capricorn). As Deb pointed out, the Moon's application to Venus (ruler of the radical twelfth) and then to Jupiter (ruler of the twelfth sign from the husband's ascendant) may be an argument that he is still alive, moreover considering that they both are dignified benefics. On the other hand, immediately after opposing the benefics, the Moon sextiles Mars, her lord, who is placed in the fourth house (the angle of grave) and is dignified on the cusp of the seventh house and the eight (exaltation and term, claiming the status of the radical eighth almuten).

What may we expect from the Moon's application to Venus and Jupiter?Probably, there should be some news, in particular, that the Moon perfects from the fifth house which traditionally is associated with messengers. Seeing that she wants some 10 minutes from being exactly partile, I would give not more than 2 months (considering that the Moon's way in Scorpio (6:39) refers to the time lapsed from the kidnapping - more than 3 years) for receiving some news. The problem, however, is the Moon's inevitable condition (fall and Via Combusta) and the nature of the sign which is mute, naturally not conducive when it comes to receiving information (not at all or false one).

All considering I believe that he is not alive and, unfortunately, there seems to be a sorrowful outcome.
Sad
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Tanit
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Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete - maybe with the early ASC and family member asking the question, it would help you feel more secure in the reading if you get a physical description of the man, to make sure that his significator fits him? Cancer rising with Moon in Scorpio would probably be a fleshy/over weight man, probably a bit stout, with a round face, large eyes and fair skin but with darkness somewhere else, such as the hair and eyes, and a hairy body.

I wonder especially about the Moon's placement in the 5th house, also with a Venusian influence ruling the 5th and 12th and dispositing Saturn in the 5th. It seems to be describing something important. Maybe he is locked in a museum, clothing warehouse, etc... Such a strange place for the Moon to be in a question like this.

Quote:
Early degrees of a sign ascending usually indicate that there is a lot to unfold.

Probably, but I also wonder if they have consulted with other means of divination over the past year?
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Janis Valkovskis



Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 526

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although it must be a contingency, I just realised that I have another missing personís chart with a fallen and Via Combusta Moon.

An upset mother asked me if I could tell her what might have happened to her son and when he would contact her.

The son is running a business in Ukraine. Five days before the question was asked (i.e. on Tuesday, March 6), she accompanied the son when he left for Ukraine. The son promised to inform the mother as soon as he reaches the destination. He used to contact the mother the same day when he arrives. According to her, it was the first time he had failed to contact her the very day when he must have arrived.

Ukraine is a country of developing economy and good business prospects, but equally uncivilized when it comes to the legal framework of business and commercial risks. He was indebted a lot to his creditors, and because of that she feared her sonís life.

As one can see, Libra is rising with a retrograde angular Saturn (the natural ruler of death), ruling over the angle of grave and the fifth sign (Aquarius) from the Libra ascendant. I have noticed that Libra frequently rises when the querent is in doubt, ignorance, hesitancy, indecisiveness, etc. Venus, the lady of ASC, rules also the radical eighth house. Although in her own sign Taurus, she is in aversion to ASC applying to Jupiter, the ruler of the fifth house, the son, both placed on the cusp of the eighth. I find Morinís ABC on how to interpret a horoscope true if applied to a horary chart as well (as all know, he is convinced that that is signified by the placement of a planet in particular house overrides that is signified by the planetís rulership over the particular house).

The Moon, the ladyís significatrix and the natural ruler of fugitives and missing persons, is in her fall Scorpio and Via Combusta. I took the position of the Moon as a signification of her upset mind and emotional condition. The Moon is also the almuten (exaltation and triplicity in a night chart) of the radical eighth. She has separated (by opposition) from Venus, the ruler of the radical eighth and the lady of Jupiter, the ruler of the fifth, the son, and is carrying (by opposition) the light to Jupiter, posited near the cusp of the eighth.

When judging the horary, I used Regiomontanus cusps where Jupiter was closer to the eighth cusp. I would be grateful if somebody instructs me how to switch setting in astro.com from Placidus to Regiomontanus.

Seeing that Jupiter is not afflicted by malefics (except Mars, who rules the second and the tenth house from his ascendant and is applying by trine to Jupiter from the latterís detriment Virgo) and is together with a dignified Venus, who disposes the former, I judge he must be OK even if Jupiter is placed on the radical eighth cusp. As I clarified later, he has a family in Ukraine and he for most part resides there. This explains why Jupiter is in the radical eighth which is the fourth from his ascendant (the house). Taurus is an earthy sign indicating to south, specifically to south - east. Ukraine lies south Ė east from Latvia.

Seeing that Mars rules the second and the tenth from the sonís ascendant and he almost partile (by trine) to Jupiter, I judged that he must be occupied with the problems of his business. As Mars rules also the third house from his ascendant, I supposed he might have misplaced somewhere his cell phone or something like that (in particular, seeing that Mercury, the ruler of Mars, is also retrograde, approaching combustion). From the very beginning I judged that there would be some contact on Tuesday (March 13) after the noon or Wednesday (March 14) morning (I took the distance from the Moonís opposition to Venus as the time lapsed from the date he left for Ukraine, March 6, and the distance to the opposition with Jupiter as time which must pass before there would be a contact).

The truth was that she tried herself to contact the son Tuesday just before the noon (Moonís opposition to Venus) but in vain, the son did not pick up the phone. I think because Scorpio is a mute sign and not conducive to contacts and the Moon in fall and Via Combusta is hardly able to perfect something.

She was upset and disturbing me with her forebodings, but I maintained the judgment that he must be OK and would contact her in a matter of days (the Moon, apart from an aspect with Jupiter, wants a little more than 2 degrees from mutual application, with reception, to Mars, her dispositor, who rules also over the third house from the sonís ascendant Ė messages, contacts on the part of the son). He contacted the mother Fridayís (March 15) night (although I instructed her to time the contact, she failed to do it). He said he was over-occupied with his business, as probably the chart suggested (Mars, ruling his second and third was applying by trine to Jupiter from Virgo, the latterís detriment).

This is a story of a happy end though. This is how the fallen and Via Combusta Moonís opposition with Venus and Jupiter panned out in real life in this horary.

Here is the chart

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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Janis Valkovskis"]Hi Pete

Quote:
I would not turn the chart, even if the wife's cousin had been the very inquirer. There must be a justified reason for turning the chart in a missing person question. If the inquirer has some kinship or other kind of relationship with the person inquired about, the degree of kinship or relationship must be close enough. I would take signification from the fifth house, if somebody should be asking about their missing child, or from the fourth if asking about the father, from the seventh, if asking about the spouse or lover, etc. If somebody should be asking about their missing boss, I would refer the missing boss to the first house notwithstanding that in normal circumstances he would be the tenth house. The same way, I would not turn chart if somebody is asking about their relative's missing spouse. The missing person is the first house.


Hi Janis, I'm sorry I'm a little confused. In your last two sentences above you say "The same way, I would not turn chart if somebody is asking about their relative's missing spouse. The missing person is the first house." If the chart shouldn't be turned then wouldn't the significator of a missing spouse be the ruler of the 7th, and not the 1st house?

Quote:
Considering the Islamic array that a male relative is usually managing the affairs of a woman whose husband is missing, I would take the wife as the inquirer herself and refer the missing husband to the seventh house, ruled by retrograde Saturn.


Right, yes, as I have done.
Quote:

Even if the Moon rules over the wife, she does over the missing husband as well. Seems that Lilly's reasoning to assign the Moon to the missing one does not change if Cancer is rising at the time of the question and, consequently, the questioner themselves get the Moon.


Always somewhat tricky, when the Moon rules the querent AND the missing person. In this case I'd say the fallen Via Combusta Moon describes both the wife and the husband's condition perfectly: extreme distress.

Quote:
Like all, I noticed an early ascendant which, in my opinion, merely reflects the fact that there is little information we know about the matter. A mute sign (Cancer) rising and both the luminaries occupying mute signs (Pisces and Scorpio respectively) aptly describe the lack of information. Early degrees of a sign ascending usually indicate that there is a lot to unfold.


I agree. The wife has heard nothing about her husband's condition or whereabouts for ten months. As you say, there may be much to unfold, and I would expect the Moon's applying aspects to illustrate that, bearing in mind that the Moon is weak and under great duress to begin with.

Quote:
However, seeing that Jupiter rules the hour at the time of the question and he disposing the ascending degree by exaltation (and regarding it) and being the lord of the sect light, I think the chart is readable and the artist may proceed with a judgment.


This I was unsure about, as we do not have classical hour agreement here. Jupiter does not rule either the sign ascending or the triplicity, so I was immediately cautious about my judgement. That's why I decided to seek help with it.

Quote:
Whichever way we look at the chart (take Saturn or Moon as the ruler of the missing person), we cannot escape from the first house lord's conjunction with the eight's lord. It makes one reasonably fear the death of the missing one. In questions about missing, ( would not let pass the first house lord's conjunction with the lord of the radical eighth or the eighth from the person's ascendant (if there had been the contact between the foregoing by aspect, we might have still cherished hope him being alive) or the former's combustion. There might be a difference in reception, who in the contact received whom, i.e. whether the relevant first's lord received the eight's lord or the relevant eight's lord received the first's lord. The first's lord receiving the eighth portends a lethal outcome for the former, but a converse reception might keep the hopes alive.


This was the contact which worried me. If we take the Moon to be the sig of the husband's death ( 8th from 7th and in the Via Combusta) then we would be forgiven for thinking that the husband has been dead for about 8 months. If however we reverse this and consider Saturn - natural ruler of death and lord of the 8th in the figure - to signify the husbands death, and the Moon to be his significator then we might assume that he had a brush with death but the lack of reception suggests that the 8th lord didn't kill him.

Quote:
The fact of kidnapping, in my opinion, is shown by opposition which Venus, who disposes Saturn, the ruler of the husband, perfected before entering into her own house Taurus. Although Lilly refers to strayed beasts whether they fled of their own or were taken away, I think that it would be proper to apply the same if we judge the fact of kidnapping. He says that the beasts fled away of their own if the domicile lord of the Moon separates from a planet, but if other planet separates from the domicile lord of the Moon, somebody has taken the beasts away. In the chart, the Sun separates by opposition from retrograde Mars who is the domicile lord of the Moon. As the separation has run almost out of the orb, it refers to an old fact.


Interesting point.

Quote:
On can see that the Moon is applying, though by opposition, to a highly dignified Venus, who rules the twelfth house (which by whole signs is the eleventh), is herself placed in the eleventh - the happiest from the houses - and, moreover, applying to Jupiter, the great preserver and benefactor, who in his turn disposes the sect light (ruling over the third house - message), rules the hour and the MC. Jupiter rules also the twelfth house from the husband's ascendant (Capricorn). As Deb pointed out, the Moon's application to Venus (ruler of the radical twelfth) and then to Jupiter (ruler of the twelfth sign from the husband's ascendant) may be an argument that he is still alive, moreover considering that they both are dignified benefics.


True, but the 12th here is also the 8th from the Moon, and that implies death when the Moon perfects her opposition to the 12th ruler (Venus), with reception. The fact that Venus is a dignified benefic may simply indicate that death is a welcome release. The Moon is in a terrible state and I just don't see how he can benefit in any way from any of these applications. Thoughts?

Quote:
On the other hand, immediately after opposing the benefics, the Moon sextiles Mars, her lord, who is placed in the fourth house (the angle of grave) and is dignified on the cusp of the seventh house and the eight (exaltation and term, claiming the status of the radical eighth almuten).


Indeed.

Quote:
What may we expect from the Moon's application to Venus and Jupiter?Probably, there should be some news, in particular, that the Moon perfects from the fifth house which traditionally is associated with messengers. Seeing that she wants some 10 minutes from being exactly partile, I would give not more than 2 months (considering that the Moon's way in Scorpio (6:39) refers to the time lapsed from the kidnapping - more than 3 years) for receiving some news. The problem, however, is the Moon's inevitable condition (fall and Via Combusta) and the nature of the sign which is mute, naturally not conducive when it comes to receiving information (not at all or false one).


Perhaps an "ambassador" of the kidnappers will bring a message when the opposition perfects but I have to concur with your judgement here: the Moons terrible condition does not hold out much hope of a happy outcome.

Quote:
All considering I believe that he is not alive and, unfortunately, there seems to be a sorrowful outcome.
Sad


Thanks Janis, for your time and input. I do think you are correct, sadly.

-Pete-[/i]
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Pete - maybe with the early ASC and family member asking the question, it would help you feel more secure in the reading if you get a physical description of the man, to make sure that his significator fits him? Cancer rising with Moon in Scorpio would probably be a fleshy/over weight man, probably a bit stout, with a round face, large eyes and fair skin but with darkness somewhere else, such as the hair and eyes, and a hairy body.


Hi Tanit. Are you talking about the kidnap victim here? If so would not Capricorn on 7th with Saturn in Libra give a better description? I'd think the Cancer/Scorpio influence might more aptly describe the querent, wouldn't you say?

Quote:
I wonder especially about the Moon's placement in the 5th house, also with a Venusian influence ruling the 5th and 12th and dispositing Saturn in the 5th. It seems to be describing something important. Maybe he is locked in a museum, clothing warehouse, etc... Such a strange place for the Moon to be in a question like this.


I thought that too, yes. My thoughts were: Moon in Scorpio - close to stagnant water or a well. In the 5th, perhaps a park, or recreational area.

Quote:
Early degrees of a sign ascending usually indicate that there is a lot to unfold.


Quote:
Probably, but I also wonder if they have consulted with other means of divination over the past year?


I don't know about the past year but shortly after the kidnapping I was asked by the wife if I could identify his whereabouts and on that occasion I used the Sabian Symbol oracle cards. I forget what symbol came up but I told her that he was being held in a very elegant, large and expensive building with a lot of other people. Also a high ranking Pakistani military officer who she spoke with told her at that time that they knew his whereabouts and they were planning a raid to free everyone. It would appear that this raid never took place. Had it done so I'm sure she would have told me.

Thanx Tanit, I appreciate your input.

-Pete-
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Janis Valkovskis



Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 526

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm sorry I'm a little confused. In your last two sentences above you say "The same way, I would not turn chart if somebody is asking about their relative's missing spouse. The missing person is the first house." If the chart shouldn't be turned then wouldn't the significator of a missing spouse be the ruler of the 7th, and not the 1st house?


Sorry, for confusion. In fact I said one thing and did another. I wanted to say that I would not turn the chart twice, first attributing the wife as a relative of the inquirer to the third and than her missing husband to the ninth. The same way, I would not turn chart if somebody should be asking about their friend's missing spouse. In such case the missing friend's spouse is not the fifth but the first. I think that the kinship or other relationship must be close enough to turn the chart.

Quote:
Always somewhat tricky, when the Moon rules the querent AND the missing person. In this case I'd say the fallen Via Combusta Moon describes both the wife and the husband's condition perfectly: extreme distress.


I have stopped bothering about the Moon's manifold roles, but in fact it complicates the judgment. Unfortunately, we have only one Moon... She may at some stage of the judgment play one role, at other stage other role, etc.

Quote:
This I was unsure about, as we do not have classical hour agreement here. Jupiter does not rule either the sign ascending or the triplicity, so I was immediately cautious about my judgement. That's why I decided to seek help with it.


That's right, but judging soccer charts a lot I feel confident that classical hour agreement should be complemented with exaltation in the ascending sign. For instance, I would judge the chart radical with Libra ascendant and Saturn ruling the hour or Capricorn ascendant and Mars ruling the hour. Exaltation in the rising sign usually is a strong testimony that the favorite team (by odds) would win, in particular with Cancer ascendant and Jupiter ruling the hour.

Quote:
This was the contact which worried me. If we take the Moon to be the sig of the husband's death ( 8th from 7th and in the Via Combusta) then we would be forgiven for thinking that the husband has been dead for about 8 months. If however we reverse this and consider Saturn - natural ruler of death and lord of the 8th in the figure - to signify the husbands death, and the Moon to be his significator then we might assume that he had a brush with death but the lack of reception suggests that the 8th lord didn't kill him.


Had the next sign after the contact not been Scorpio, the fall of the Moon, I would have assumed that the eighth lord could not have killed him. But as the Moon naturally rules over the missing, there seems to be little hope.

Quote:
True, but the 12th here is also the 8th from the Moon, and that implies death when the Moon perfects her opposition to the 12th ruler (Venus), with reception. The fact that Venus is a dignified benefic may simply indicate that death is a welcome release. The Moon is in a terrible state and I just don't see how he can benefit in any way from any of these applications.


That's right, but I am not sure what Lilly (I can't find right now where exactly in Christian Astrology, as I remember it was somewhere about strayed beasts) did mean saying such application to the eighth lord from the Moon implies death. My logic suggests that he in such questions meant the lord of the eighth sign from the Moon to whom the Moon must apply to imply death ... not the ruler of the eighth mundane house from the Moon.

I would be thankful if Deb should clarify the point what exactly Lilly meant by saying this.

I skipped to mention last time that the Moon was separating from Saturn, the ruler of the eighth, and applying to Venus, the latter's lord. My experience is such that the Moon's separation from a planet and immediate application to the relevant planet's lord hits the final nail in the coffin of what was signified by the previous Moon's contact. It pretty well works in missing things questions, if the Moon separates from the ruler of the thing inquired about and immediately applies to the relevant ruler's lord, I feel confident that the thing would be found. I assume that it might not work if application should happen from a wrong house (such as the eighth).
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