skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

US Election and Grand Conjunctions
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Mundane Astrology & World Events
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3458
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:45 pm    Post subject: US Election and Grand Conjunctions Reply with quote

Hi,

I have Leo rising trine Jupiter in Sagittarius, so it only takes one request to convince me that there is a groundswell of interest in what I have to say. Also, the election is over and much of this can now be said with, I hope, a minimum of partisan rancor, although I see in the news a mob of the forces of tolerance vandalized and tried to set fire to a Republican headquarters in North Carolina. Interestingly they tried to burn both Bush and Kerry in effigy. I guess the Kerry bashing will begin now.

Let me state what I’m not doing. I’m not claiming that what I’m about to offer is a sure fire way of predicting a Presidential election – far from it. There are some things of interest here, but I’m still not persuaded that these things are predictable with any one or even multiple techniques. Also space is going to limit some of the analysis, but others may want to delve into this a little deeper. I hope so. There are several things of interest in the 2001 Grand Conjunction chart that I didn’t touch on.

Caveat: I make no claims at expertise in mundane astrology. This may end up being worth precisely what you paid for it.

Background

Just what is the US birth chart? No one knows for sure, but lots of people think they do. July 4, 1776, the date on the Declaration of Independence, is the most popular one. There is widespread disagreement about a time though. Others use Battle of Bunker Hill, Paul Revere’s ride, ratification of the Constitution, signing of the Declaration itself (July 6 not July 4), ratification of the Declaration (sometime in August maybe?) and there are others. I tried something different. At least I’ve never seen it before, sort of.

In The Astrologer’s Apprentice No 21, John Frawley wrote an article on mundane astrology using the US as an example. Rather than use a July 4 chart he used the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction that preceded American Independence. This chart is dated March 18, 1762, 4:41 pm GMT, Washington DC. Maybe Deb can put the chart in. I’m fully aware that Washington DC did not exist in 1762, but casting the chart for the de facto capital of the US at that time, New York City, changes it very little. This will be our base chart.

Ken Negus of the Astrological Society of Princeton, NJ, wrote an article that started out as a comparison of the charts of G.W. Bush and John Quincy Adams, America’s 6th President. These men are the only sons of Presidents to go on to be elected President. Ken noticed they both have Saturn-Jupiter squares in their respective natal charts in the same degrees but not signs. He then discovered four other US Presidents with that particular aspect including Bill Clinton’s out-of-sign square. The others are Woodrow Wilson, Grover Cleveland, and Andrew Jackson. I checked those charts against the 1762 chart and found connections in all of them, some stronger than others. From there I checked the connections of John Kerry’s chart to the 1762 chart and then both Kerry’s and G.W. Bush’s chart to the May 28, 2000 Grand conjunction. My study was hardly exhaustive, but I did find a few things of interest.


Cleveland, Clinton, Jackson, Wilson

Here is a short list of what I found. Emphasis is on the interactions of the President’s Jupiter-Saturn squares with the 1762 chart.

1) Grover Cleveland’s angles are virtually the same as the Grand Conjunction chart angles when they are cast for DC. His Jupiter squares the Grand Conjunction.

2) Bill Clinton’s IC-MC axis is the same as the Conjunction chart’s ASC-DSC within three degrees. Clinton’s ASC ruler, Venus is conjunct the Conjunction Venus by antiscion and Venus is the exaltation ruler of the conjunction MC and is herself in her exaltation. Exaltation seems to figure prominently in contest charts and charts of people being “elevated” in some way. However Clinton’s Saturn-Jupiter square doesn’t seem to be involved, but his square is out of sign.

3) Andrew Jackson’s Jupiter, at 17 Virgo is conjunct JQ Adam’s Jupiter, which is on the 4th cusp of the Conjunction chart and is on the antiscion of the Conjunction itself. Jackson’s MC-IC axis is the same as the Conjunction ASC-DSC axis by sign. At 7 degrees it’s a bit wide to be considered conjunct.

4) Woodrow Wilson’s Saturn is conjunct the Grand Conjunction’s ASC, and his Jupiter is conjunct the Conjunction chart’s elevated Mercury. Wilson’s Sun is on the Conjunction chart’s DSC. Wilson’s DSC is on the Conjunction itself.

Presidents George W. Bush and President John Quincy Adams


Adams’ natal Jupiter is conjunct the Grand Conjunction by antiscion. His Jupiter is also conjunct the Grand Conjunction chart’s 4th house. The conjunction itself is conjunct the DC 4th house cusp and therefore Adams’ natal Jupiter by antiscion.

Note, too W and Adams both have Mercury at just shy of 10 Leo (W: 9.50 and Adams at 9.46). Adams’ Mars-Mercury conjunction is at the midpoint of Adams Saturn-Jupiter square. The Grand Conjunction at 12 Aries, fell on Adams’ Moon/MC midpoint. Adams was born on an eclipse

Bush’s natal Sun is square the conjunction and in fact the conjunction completes a T- Square in his natal chart. The conjunction opposes the natal Jupiter – Moon conjunction (the dispositors of Bush’s Sun and Saturn).

Adams connections seemed to jump out at me, while I had to hunt for Bush’s. Adams, interestingly, was not re-elected. Cleveland is the only man elected to non-consecutive terms as President. The others, and now including Bush, were all re elected.

George Bush and John Kerry

The Kerry chart I used had some doubt cast on it lately, but I stuck to the morning chart since I think it fits. Kerry has little connection to the 1762 chart except by antiscion. His natal Venus, ruler of his MC, and exaltation ruler of the conjunction MC is conjunct the conjunction Mars which rules the conjunction 11th house (advisors to the king – US Senate), and he did serve in the US military. Venus is in detriment however. Other than that there are some connections by antiscion, but there is little else to connect him to this chart. W didn’t have much, but Kerry had less. Does this matter?

May 28, 2000 Grand Conjunction

Bad News for Kerry: the angles are fixed. Nothing is going to change. Bad news for he Democrats: Nothing is going to change for 20 years. In other words, in order for a Democrat to get elected, he is going to have to be like a Republican (I don’t really believe this). Clinton campaigned as a “New Democrat,” but governed like an old one until forced to do otherwise,” and this maybe what they’ll have to do. Kerry’s Jupiter sits smack on the conjunction ASC, and this is Kerry’s ASC ruler. There are a few other connections as well: Kerry’s Moon is on the conjunction Mars, Kerry’s Saturn, the exaltation ruler of the MC is conjunct the conjunction part of fortune. So why did he lose? I was wondering about this when I checked on a yahoo group and found some words by John Frawley on Predication.

He noted that using Kerry’s natal chart and whatever technique was bound to show some beneficial aspects. This was, probably, the greatest day of his life. He came within one state of winning the Presidency of the US. The chart would reflect this.

But there is nothing in Bush’s chart that shows he will not win (e.g changing residence, illness, public disgrace etc). This is, after all, a contest. Bush simply has to keep from losing whereas Kerry must triumph. This simple explanation is revealing and a look at charts where the incumbent lost (e.g. George Bush I) might be worthwhile. What I’m getting from this, is that if we use only the nativities and, say, transits and progressions, we have to find loss in the incumbent, or else he wins regardless of whom has the best transits on election day.

Frawley’s comment that Nov 2 might be the greatest day in Kerry’s life. is interesting when we listen to Kerry’s concession speech. For perhaps the only time in the campaign he was genuinely gracious. I don’t mean this as a backhanded compliment. American politics at that level is rough and tumble, and if the candidate isn’t tough, he isn’t going to win. But I think the observation is fair. He took a legitimate pride in having come so close, although there was certainly pain in losing. He commented earlier in the day on what a thrill it was to see his own name as a candidate for the Presidency. I think that remark and the concession speech came from the heart (Al Gore gave a similarly gracious and sincere concession speech in 2000), and offer in some way self-recognition of accomplishment, despite not achieving the ultimate goal. Several hundred million people have been born, raised, died and are still living in the US since our first Presidential election. Only 43 have become President (actually 42. Grover Cleveland for some reason is counted twice since his terms were non consecutive. It was the same individual however).

So what do the conjunction charts show? Comparison of the natal charts and their derivatives show how the winner will govern or what challenges he faces. Rob Hand made the observation that all US Presidents have strong connections with the US chart (Which one, Rob? Wink ). This is probably true. I haven’t checked so I’ll concede the point. I’m not persuaded that this seemingly legitimate observation can always be used to pick a winner, and ditto the conjunction charts. Hand never made that claim either. Yes, we need to look at the conjunction charts particularly when two non-incumbents are running, as will be the case in 2008. The problem with using the same techniques in all cases is the assumption that all things are equal all the time. That simply isn’t true.

Bush, Religion and the 2001 Conjunction Chart

We’ve come along way in the US. We’ve reached the point where pornography is a protected right and religion is a dirty word. For all his being called “Hitler,” Fascist,” and “The Anti-Christ” what really sends his enemies into a sputtering rage is that G.W. Bush acknowledges, in public no less, that he is a religious man. What may be either coincidental or ironic depending on your point of view is that religion is playing the major role in his administration both here and abroad.

Let’s go back to Lilly and the religious war of his day. In CA page 439 is the horary question, Will the Presbytery Stand?” It is one of the more famous horaries and it is the only question in the book that was not answered at the time of publication (December 1647), but it turned out to be correct in something of a spectacular fashion.

Grand conjunctions are not horaries, but astrology is astrology, and we can learn from Lilly’s efforts. To answer such a question as Lilly posed, I suggest many of us would run instinctively to the ruler of the 9th house to signify the Presbytery. In most cases we’d be right, but Lilly noticed something else. Posited in the 9th house of this question is Saturn in Taurus, which Lilly took as the significator of the Presbytery using these words to delineate the position: “severe,” “surly,” “rigid,” and “strict.” This is a pretty good description of Saturn in Taurus and a pretty good description of religious fundamentalism period.

The 2001 conjunction has Saturn in Taurus in his own terms and face. Jupiter, the natural significator of religion is also in the terms and face of Saturn. But look at the conjunction. It is right on the MC, the most elevated planets in the chart. Saturn is in Taurus: severe, surly, rigid, and strict, occupying the domicile of the king or President in this case, conjunct the President’s natal ASC by antiscion, and square the conjunction ASC in mundo and in zodiac. The connection with the religious fundamentalism is pretty clear and this President is associated with it personally (conjunction square his natal ASC by antiscion), at home (square the conjunction ASC) in terms of support, and abroad, Saturn rules the 7th house of open enemies.


Conclusion

Interaction with the conjunction charts is helpful and perhaps would be very helpful, if neither candidate was the incumbent. The power of the incumbency is great and it isn’t easy to overcome. The conjunction itself has fixed angles indicating slow change for a while. The combination was more of an obstacle than John Kerry could overcome. It was Bush’s election to lose and he didn’t lose it.

The conjunction charts seem to show trends that are promised regardless of who is President. How those trends will be handled is probably revealed by comparison with the leader’s charts as well as eclipses and other ingresses. A straight up comparison with the Grand Conjunction charts isn’t enough.

Tom



Chart Data

Grand Conjunction of 1762
March 18, 1762 NS
4:41 PM GMT
Washington DC
8 Cancer 49 rises

G.W. Bush
July 6, 1946
7:26 AM EDT
New Haven, CT
7 Leo rises

John F. Kerry
December 11, 1943
8:03 am MWT
Denver Co
16 Sagittarius rises

Grand Conjunction of 2001
May 28, 2000
3:39 PM GMT
Washington DC
27 Leo rises


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom intoned,

"Bush, Religion and the 2001 Conjunction Chart

We’ve come along way in the US. We’ve reached the point where pornography is a protected right and religion is a dirty word. For all his being called “Hitler,” Fascist,” and “The Anti-Christ” what really sends his enemies into a sputtering rage is that G.W. Bush acknowledges, in public no less, that he is a religious man. What may be either coincidental or ironic depending on your point of view is that religion is playing the major role in his administration both here and abroad. "

Granny disagrees
what pisses people off is not that he claims to be religious, but that he denigrates the religious or non religious beliefs of others. In fact trying to take away the religious status of some persons. He's been overruled (thank the deities) by the legal branches, but it doesn't change the fact that he tells other people that their beliefs are trivial, irrelevant or wrong and attempts to legislate it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

by the way, I was so irritatted over the one comment I forgot to mention that I like the annalysis.

Very interesting idea, expecially considering how much weight that saturn/jupiter conjunction seems to have over this country. I find the analysis quite interesting.

thank you for sharing.

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3458
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
what pisses people off is not that he claims to be religious, but that he denigrates the religious or non religious beliefs of others. In fact trying to take away the religious status of some persons. He's been overruled (thank the deities) by the legal branches, but it doesn't change the fact that he tells other people that their beliefs are trivial, irrelevant or wrong and attempts to legislate it.


I've seen similar remarks about the President, yet I've never once seen a single example of it, much less of anything like this being overruled. And I mean an original source quote; not a blind accusation made with third or fourth hand knowledge (quotes from hate groups don't count). I have listened ad naseum all week to people who denigrate those who have religious beliefs of any kind, for having the temerity to vote, but they're just sore losers. Wink

Cheers,

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to go to a meeting right now, but I'll have quotes and such for you tomorrow, if it is too non astrological, I'll send it to you personally.

Granny.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to go to a meeting right now, but I'll have quotes and such for you tomorrow, if it is too non astrological, I'll send it to you personally.

by the way, the next J/S conj will be in 2020 at 0 degrees of Aquarius, want to guess the impact of that? I feel a counter revolution coming on...

Granny.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3458
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
by the way, the next J/S conj will be in 2020 at 0 degrees of Aquarius, want to guess the impact of that? I feel a counter revolution coming on...

Granny.


When the next Jupiter Saturn conjunction occurs I'll be in my 70s. I'm not terribly concerned. I might not even be alive. Aquarius is a fixed sign, ruled by Saturn, and I think its association with revolution is highly overrated, if not incorrect.

You have to look at the cycles. If the 2000 conjunction was the last one in earth until the next complete cycle, then the first conjunction in air is highly significant. There is a chart of the world which begins when this cycle starts. The full cycle is about 765 years. The first conjunction of each new cycle in fire is the "chart of the world." Each time the conjunction begins a new cycle in an element, that chart is important as well. Think of it the same way you would think of ingress charts. The Aries ingress is the most important and each subsequent cardinal ingress is read in conjunction with the Aries ingress. The Chart of the world begins with the first conjunction of fire and each conjunction in a subsequent element takes on significance.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Below are the charts for the two great conjunctions.
Bush's and Kerry's charts can be found at the two links below:

Bush
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/im/charts/g_bush.gif

Kerry
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/im/forum/kerry.gif





BTW, I checked the time, but I get 23 Leo on the asc for the 2000 conjunction.


(I lost my internet connection for a couple of days, so apologies for the delay)

Deb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: Age of aquarius ? Reply with quote

Quote:
When the next Jupiter Saturn conjunction occurs I'll be in my 70s. I'm not terribly concerned. I might not even be alive. Aquarius is a fixed sign, ruled by Saturn, and I think its association with revolution is highly overrated, if not incorrect.


I agree, never fully compreended the whole "age of aquarius" frenesi Razz

I took this really beautiful quote for those of us who don´t buy the new uranian nature of aquarius Laughing It is from http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/, sorry if it a bit long, it is quite provocative:

Quote:
In this "Age of Aquarius" we are now entering, it may be a sign that personal freedoms will gradually give way to the needs of society as a whole, even while we are all gradually becoming more unique and separate. The freedoms we now take for granted, such as the right to privacy, are being set against the right to freedom of information. Ultimately freedom of information will win. A series of crises may be engineered for this purpose. For instance, as disease becomes more prevalent, the needs of the many for your personal medical information will outweigh your need to keep it private and confidential. The same will be the case in crime prevention, when knowing your genetic code, authorities will be able to arrest you ahead of time as a risk for certain types of crime. What will they charge you with? An illegal chromosome in number 26Y? This isn't as ridiculous as you might think. With the apple of knowledge inside a computer (The "I Know" in Aquarius) comes responsibility, and sin. Insurance companies may also need this information for "the good of the many" to judge your risk to society. Those of us willing to wear safety bracelets that tell the authorities our location may get a reduction in our "societal risk rates". We already see the beginnings of this kind of thinking with auto insurance rates, but it is expanding into other questions, such as diet and risks to health, behaviors like smoking and drinking. When we go to Wegmans and buy food with the "shoppers club card", what is the objective? More efficient marketing demographics? In exchange for information on our shopping habits, they discount the price. Of course, they gradually raise the price so that we get used to giving up the information for free. The problem is that years from now that information will not be gone and could become a personal liability when lawyers pass laws against sugar or God knows what, because it has become a public health issue and an insurance liability. There are so many horrors I can't enumerate them all. As roadways become more crowded, the needs of the many to get to work safely will outweigh your need for a leisurely drive without seatbelts. As overpopulation crowds the planet, the needs of the many to be not so many, will outweigh your need to procreate. State sanctioned genetically enhanced designer babies is the result. We already saw the beginnings of this with Hitler, for the "good of the fatherland". As seen in Star Trek, the Borg epitomize this theme of unity and consensus (Aquarius), advanced technology (Uranus) and suppression of individuality (Saturn). Welcome to the new age. Resistance is futile.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yuzuru

There is a problem with the link you gave for this extract. Could you check it and give us the link where this is found please? Also, because this is such a sizeable quote, it’s only fair to the author to tell us who wrote this. Was it Curtis Manwaring?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:19 pm    Post subject: Sorry Reply with quote

Sorry for the incompletitude of my quote, Deb :-)
It is from Curtis Curtis Manwaring and there is no direct link that I know of. You can download the book for free in
http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/secrets.htm and look for in Apendice A:
"Planets in the 12 Zodiac Signs" and look for the description of Aquarius.

Yuzuru
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is another bit on GCs Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monk



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 221
Location: London

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Granny Scott,
I for one am not anti-religion, i just think that religions do get mixed.
I think G.W. Bush is very religious, he swore his oath of office on a Bible.
www.thepowerhour.com/articles/masonic_1.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monk,

In my point of view that would be another reason to BAN religions, not a point in their favor, I think the man is a monster who belongs in Prison, not office. Other opinions I'm certain will vary.

But where did this Non sequitor come from Monk? I was just pointing to some threads on Grand Conjunctions for Mark F.... Smile

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monk



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 221
Location: London

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Granny,
I have no wish to frighten astrologers off on this thread, but background to astrological study, when we face a war that may go on for 3 decades, needs some perpective.
I am a moderate christian, i research religion but i'm not looking for conspiracy theories or deem President Bush an antichrist etc, that is fundamentalist views.
If you looked up the meaning of Al-Qaeda on wikipedia, you will find that it means "the foundation" or "Base".
Also known as Qa' idat al-Jahid, Islamic army for the Liberation of the Holy Places, World Islamic front for Jihad against Jews and "crusaders".
Jerusalem is the centre of most religious beliefs, and Moslems need a corridor to this Holy Place.
I'm not saying this would stop the fighting, but it would be a great hurdle to overcome in understanding between religions.
I have great sympathy with jews but we cant get out of our present mess without Jerusalem being available to all the faiths concerned.
I have the greatest respect for the American people who spent mega-bucks rebuilding countries after WW2.
I have no right to influence Americans as i am English, i just hope that the next president has liberal views with religion, i have no wish to hurt masons/crusaders, my only view is for them to stay out of politics till we are out of our present mess, it really fires up Arab fundamentalists.
You dont need to be psychic to know that the first job of a democracy is defence of the realm, and obviously Israel will bomb Iran if we cannot get any agreement with Iran's nuclear ambitions.
We need a world leader who is unbiased in religious views.
I will not stop the flow of astrologers, i'll only comment further on my thread on the forum, but background to astrology research is important.
Sorry to interupt the flow.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Mundane Astrology & World Events All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated