"What's going on with x?"

1
Question asked on Nov 17th, 2004
11:59 pm, est +5:00
40N33 73W58

"What's going on with x?"

I am the first, ruler Merc. He is the 7th, Jupiter.

What I don't understand in this chart is that both the Moon and Jupiter are coming to a conjunction and trine respectively with Neptune (Moon to Nep: 3 minutes; Jup to Nep: 1.5 deg); from the turned 12th to the 12th (moon to nept) and turned 6th to the 12th (jup to nept).

What's going on? What is Neptune? And I assume the Moon represents him?

and both the Moon and Jup are in mutual reception with Saturn, ruler of his turned 11th and 12th. What is Saturn?

Any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks.

2
This seems like a very broad question. When you ask 'What's going on with x?' what do you mean? Going on with his job, his home, his dog, his love life or what's going on in relation to the two of you? If your question is about what is going on with the two of you why are you using the turned chart? Not saying you shouldn't have turned the chart but just trying to understand why you did.

When you ask what's going on with Neptune, it depends a lot on what exactly the question is and how it relates to the rest of the chart. However, I don't believe that the outer planets can be used in any other way but to clarify information that is already seen by using the traditional planets. Outer planets might, at times, be able to clarify, contribute and perhaps confirm the answer but I don't believe an outer planet can construct the answer itself. If it's not already supported by using the traditional planets, the outer planets won't give the answer. I would probably take note of the close conjunction of the Moon to Neptune. The Moon is separating from Jupiter (his significator) and applying to Neptune, suggesting perhaps a lack of clear thinking.

Why do you say that the Moon is him? It is very difficult to give feedback on this chart without having a clearer understanding of the question.

3
Sue wrote:
This seems like a very broad question. When you ask 'What's going on with x?' what do you mean? Going on with his job, his home, his dog, his love life or what's going on in relation to the two of you?
Sue,
You are right, the question is not phrased properly. But what I meant was "Where is he, what state is he in, what is he doing with his life?" This is someone I knew very well but have not seen in a long time, and who I understand from other people is wandering aimlessly. I am not in a position to find out for myself, so I asked the horary.
If your question is about what is going on with the two of you why are you using the turned chart?
The question is not about the two of us, hence I turned the chart.
I would probably take note of the close conjunction of the Moon to Neptune. The Moon is separating from Jupiter (his significator) and applying to Neptune, suggesting perhaps a lack of clear thinking.
Well, yes, that was what interested me about this horary in the first place. Based on the fact that the question is about him, wouldn't the Moon represent him? The reason I say this is because both the Moon and his Ruler are applying to Neptune, and aside from this application, they dont' appear to be applying to anything else.

Thank you for helping me understand.

4
Hi Taurus7

I would probably have tried to design the question in a way that would give a clear answer. 'What's going on?' is too open-ended and so is 'what is he doing with his life?'. Perhaps something like 'Is x safe?'or 'Is there reason to be concerned about x?' I don't know what your major concern is about this person but it sounds like you want to know if he is safe.

Why are you using the 7th house if he is a friend? I would have thought the more appropriate house would be the 11th house, in which case his main significator would be the Moon (as ruler of the 11th).

Cheers
Sue

5
Hello

I'd like to offer a quick interpretation on this horary question as resulted from the proper use of the Sabian Symbols in horary.
There is this new theory on the Sabian Symbols (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrolog ... ymbols.php) that I have developped and it says basicly that the Sabian Symbol of the antiscion degree of a house cusp in a horary chart gives always a good understanding of what's going in that house.
The use of the Sabian Symbols is especially useful when it comes to questions like this one, because the symbol will just describe the situation but will not give a yes/no or otherwise answer to a horary question.

In this case, the quesited house is the 7th, although the question refers to a friend, because the querent specified the name of the person. The 7th house cusp is at 4 Pis 55, whose antiscion is at 25 Lib 05, so we read the Sabian Symbol for 26 Libra:

AN EAGLE AND A LARGE WHITE DOVE TURNING INTO EACH OTHER.

In order to better understand this symbol I use Lynda Hill's book "The Sabian Symbols as an Oracle" and get from there the explanation of the symbol:

"There is a need to integrate the principle of the will with the principle of the emotions. There may be a confusion around whether to use force or love in this situation. Alternation of these responses may lead to a solution. Tempering one's will with love and bolstering up one's emotional responses with strength. Cooperation of mind, will, spirit and heart. If negative - being `all over the place', not acting for the purpose of a definite outcome."

I think this Sabian Symbol explanation covers the friend's situation quite well, giving also an insight on his inner, emotional state.

6
siraxi wrote:Hello
The use of the Sabian Symbols is especially useful when it comes to questions like this one, because the symbol will just describe the situation but will not give a yes/no or otherwise answer to a horary question.
Siraxi,
Thanks for your take on this, very interesting. I'm learning a lot of new stuff these days- it was the asteroids last week and Sabian Symbols today...
".....If negative - being `all over the place', not acting for the purpose of a definite outcome."
I think this Sabian Symbol explanation covers the friend's situation quite well, giving also an insight on his inner, emotional state.
It would appear that the negative interpretation is the one that better describes his state, based on the overall horary and the application of both the Moon and his ruler to Neptune?

Based on what I know of his condition from other people, the above delineation I think fits perfectly - he is drifting aimlessly.
Last edited by Taurus7 on Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7
Hello Siraxi,
I'm a member of Lynda's forum too, so it's nice to see you posting here.
In this case, the quesited house is the 7th, although the question refers to a friend, because the querent specified the name of the person. The 7th house cusp is at 4 Pis 55, whose antiscion is at 25 Lib 05, so we read the Sabian Symbol for 26 Libra:

AN EAGLE AND A LARGE WHITE DOVE TURNING INTO EACH OTHER.
Siraxi,
according to SolarFire v5, the 7th cusp of this chart at 23.59 hrs EST, Englewood, N.J., is 5 Pisces 01, so the antiscion degree is 24 Libra 59'. This asks us to look at the symbol for 25 Libra. Can you confirm this?
If it is right, then the antiscion symbol for 'X' would be:

"THE SIGHT OF AN AUTUMN LEAF BRINGS TO THE PILGRIM THE SUDDEN REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY OF LIFE AND DEATH"

It speaks of pilgrims and their journeys, as well as photographs and snapshots in time.
Negatively: Focusing on things of no lasting value or which are no longer relevant.

I wonder if Taurus 7 can see any relevance in this symbol, either in the circumstances of 'X', or in her concern for his situation?
Cheers...
--
Pete

8
Pete wrote:according to SolarFire v5, the 7th cusp of this chart at 23.59 hrs EST, Englewood, N.J., is 5 Pisces 01
Hey Pete
The difference lies in the geographic coordinates. Taurus7 said 40N33 73W58 - Englewood. You used 40N53 73W57 - Englewood Cliffs. I used the first coordinates - therefore I still think that the correct symbol is for 26 Libra...

9
siraxi wrote:
Pete wrote:according to SolarFire v5, the 7th cusp of this chart at 23.59 hrs EST, Englewood, N.J., is 5 Pisces 01
Hey Pete
The difference lies in the geographic coordinates. Taurus7 said 40N33 73W58 - Englewood. You used 40N53 73W57 - Englewood Cliffs. I used the first coordinates - therefore I still think that the correct symbol is for 26 Libra...
Siraxi is right, the town that I asked the question in is Englewood - Englewood Cliffs is the next town over. So it would appear that the correct symbol is 26 Libra.

10
Pete wrote:
"THE SIGHT OF AN AUTUMN LEAF BRINGS TO THE PILGRIM THE SUDDEN REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY OF LIFE AND DEATH"

It speaks of pilgrims and their journeys, as well as photographs and snapshots in time.
Negatively: Focusing on things of no lasting value or which are no longer relevant.

I wonder if Taurus 7 can see any relevance in this symbol, either in the circumstances of 'X', or in her concern for his situation?
Well, actually, the negative relevance of this symbol also fits in with what I have heard about his situation; i.e.
Focusing on things of no lasting value or which are no longer relevant.
For what it's worth, Englewood Cliffs is just maybe a mile from Englewood. The difference in coordinates results in a different symbol, but the "negative" aspects of the symbolism for both fit his situation.

11
Gawd, not more of this ?one size fits all? astrology !
it would appear that the correct symbol is 26 Libra.

Well, actually, the negative relevance of this symbol also fits in with what I have heard about his situation
The fact that the wrong symbol also seems appropriate is not surprising. These meanings are designed to be obscure, so that they can seem relevant to as many situations as possible.

Welcome to the forum Siraxi (and before you decide to hate me for my comments let me say congratulations on your very informative website). This is good stuff for Sabian symbol enthusiasts but come on, be honest ? don?t you think that building a horary reading on the Sabian Symbol of the antiscion degree of a house cusp is stretching its credibility a tad too far?? I think I may as well just take up tea leaf readings, or toss a coin and analyse its engravings.

I have accepted that horary is in many ways a very mystical and symbolic form of astrology, and I might not ever understand the full basis of its divinational power, but the peripheral techniques ? antiscia, parts, symbols, etc, are like the outer ripples of a meaning that is usually more clearly evident in the movement and the contacts of the planets. They either repeat, reflect or develop what is more centrally available, or they expand the potential of the reading into whatever we want it to be. Each on its own can have a role to play, but developing them one on top of the other is just too much for me. The beauty and reliability of horary lies in its ability to be specific and unambiguous. The very best charts have clear answers to clear questions. Astrologers that are confused by vague potentials will not be able to give a confident and precise analysis, and I can just imagine the response from clients if I started answering their questions with this turn of phrase!

I have another issue. This ?if a person has a name they are 7th house? thing - which has come up before. Where does that come from? It?s certainly not a traditional aphorism and makes no sense at all.
In this case, the quesited house is the 7th, although the question refers to a friend, because the querent specified the name of the person.
If someone wants to suggest that all ?other persons? are 7th house, fine, but why should my daughter be 5th house if I refer to her as ?daughter? and 7th house if I refer to her by name? (Very often that is influenced by whether someone has more than one daughter.)

When Lilly offered his example horary on the Archbishop of Canterbury he didn?t assign him to the 7th house because he had named him in the question, but assigned him to the 9th house ?as a man of the church?. Traditional texts are consistent in telling us that the quesited?s signification is derived from the houses according to the relationship they hold to the querent. This suggestion offers no advantages and merely presents another unnecessary point of confusion - and therefore another reason for astrologers to be hesitant in their judgments (if I read it this way it means this, but if I read it that way it means that).

And anyway, how can it be argued that someone who has been labelled ?X? has had their name specified? If anything this is a clear case of avoiding the name!

12
About three modern horary texts that I own and have read have said that if you know the person's name it is a 7th house, and if you only know their relationship it is a matter of another house. And they say that it is a matter of how the question is formed, whether the name is used or not.

I think however the problem lies in teaching old dogs new tricks. Having obeyed this rule for years it just seems hard to drop it.

But - this is the problem. It is difficult for someone to recognize what is hooey and what is not when delving into the literature. It takes a while to be able to see that perhaps some authors are misleading. And early on in any study it just isn't easy to pick out the incorrect information.

Reading Deb's post here about names is now starting to shed some light for me on the subject. I think this old dog is now ready to drop the "rule of the name" and switch over to using the relationship house. Using the name game has always been easier. For instance, is Jill my friend, co-worker, or employee? What house signifies co-worker? Friend is 11 and employee is 6, but where is the co-worker? Time to get out the books and not be so lazy. But which books? Lily seems to be the authority, but where does he talk about co-workers? Even the literature on houses doesn't always agree. And does it depend on the question I ask or strictly on defining the relationship, such as "is my friend Joe going to be promoted" or "is my boss Joe going to be promoted"??? Just sticking Joe in the 7th house is certainly the lazy way out, but I am starting to see that this might not be the clearest way to get the right answer. But the question of where I put Joe in this chart can pose a dilemna that I am just not knowledgable (yet) to easily figure out.

My point - this is why I come to this forum. I am not looking for someone to read my horary charts, but truly to guide me in the right direction.

Thank you, Deb, and others, because this is a beginning. But boy do I have a long way to go!
Debra