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Possible marriage w/7th ruler Saturn r. in 12?
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:23 am    Post subject: Possible marriage w/7th ruler Saturn r. in 12? Reply with quote

Hello all, this is my first time for posting although I have been reading the posts for quite some time. In the past several months I have been studying Horary and would like to get some help on a chart.

I asked the question, "Will A. marry me," on 11-7-04 at 11:08 p.m. PST, Woodland, California, Yolo County. Ascendant is 14deg20 Leo using Placidus. According to Horary rules, if I understand them correctly, the chart is radical.

My ruler is the Sun, co-ruler the Moon. The Quesited, 7th house, ruler is Saturn at 27deg21 Cancer, stationary? retrograde, in detriment and in the 12th house. Saturn has joy in the 12th but I don't know if this is any kind of dignity. My co-ruler, Moon 21deg09 Virgo, is in Saturn's terms and Saturn is in Moon's face, am I right in considering this a mutual reception?
The Moon will make a sextile to Saturn then the Sun will make a trine to Saturn. I'm thinking this is a positive answer but I'm not really sure.

My question pertains to Saturn's status regarding the answer since everything else appears to be a yes unless I have missed something.

If this has any bearing on the Horary, natally the Moon rules my Ascendant and Saturn rules my 7th, my natal Mars is conjunct the Horary Ascendant.

It's pretty hard to be unbiased when doing a chart for oneself. Any comments/help would be very much appreciated. Thanks ever so much.
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Ben



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 167
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi MarG,

Although my main practice is in natal astrology, I have done some horary and my impression is that, except for some specialized rules about perfection, delineating planets by house/condition in horaries is pretty much the same as in natal. So I hope you don't mind if I add my own two cents, because I found the description of your chart interesting.

For Saturn to be in the 12th, in detriment, and retrograde, is just about the worst situation for him to be in. Planets are in their "joy" in a house because they have fun doing what they do best there -- in Saturn's case, it's causing trouble: traditionally disease, inhibiting freedoms, sending people to prison, and bringing on secret enemies. I saw a horary chart once (another relationship question) where the ruler of the 7th, Saturn, was in the 12th. The lover had a hidden drug problem, and the querent found out that the lover had been lying about a number of things. And Saturn wasn't even in detriment or retrograde!

So I don't know if the trines from the Sun or the Moon will mean you will marry, but my advice would be to watch out.

By medieval rules Saturn and the Moon are not in mutual reception. For reception to take place, they must be (a) in aspect, and one planet has to be (b) either in the other's domicile (dignity), exaltation, or TWO of its minor dignities (triplicity, term, decan/face). For mutual reception to take place, EACH of them has to fulfill criterion (b).

In your case they are in aspect, and Saturn is in the Moon's domicile. So the Moon receives Saturn, which I believe helps in perfection. But the Saturn does not receive the Moon. That's from the medieval perspective. Can't remember what Lilly says.

Good luck!

Ben
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ben"]Hi MarG,
Quote:
For Saturn to be in the 12th, in detriment, and retrograde, is just about the worst situation for him to be in.
.........
So I don't know if the trines from the Sun or the Moon will mean you will marry, but my advice would be to watch out.


To this I might add that I'm not sure if you can count the trine of the Sun to Saturn, because I think it is out of Orb - 11 degrees - I'm not entirely sure but it seems pretty wide.

Also, while the Moon does come to a sextile with Saturn, but Saturn is retrograde. It seems you make the effort to make it happen but he may back out.

Furthermore, Neptune on the descendant looks quite ominous - Either you are not thinking clearly about this situation, or you don't see him in a clear perspective, or he has some major issues of his own (p.s> he definitely has issues, because Saturn is in the 12th and in detriment). THere are definietly some "delusional" factors involved here.

On top of everything, nasty Mars is squaring Saturn - not entirely sure what that means, but Mars is on the cusp of your fourth and rules your fourth - trouble in your home on account of him????

I don't have my software with me but I do believe that Saturn is also peregrine - he is drifting "aimlessly" - is he a "drifter"? does he have a job?

The reception that you mention is mixed, not mutual, and it is very weak. And as Ben states, it really doesn't qualify anyway.

I would stay clear......

All the best,
Taurus7
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Ben



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 167
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taurus7 --

Thanks - I didn't have the chart in front of me so I didn't even know about the square from Mars -- OK, so the only way it could be worse is if Saturn were also combust and conjunct Cauda Draconis. Jeez: cadent, in detriment, retrograde, afflicted by a malefic.

MarG, I don't know you or your situation, but you might consider getting your natal chart delineated. It would take the issue out of the immediate situation, and put it in a larger context. Natal figures can predict marriages as well as describe spouses, and you ought to see if there are signs of bad relationship patterns.

Best,
Ben
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben wrote:
OK, so the only way it could be worse is if Saturn were also combust and conjunct Cauda Draconis. Jeez: cadent, in detriment, retrograde, afflicted by a malefic.


But wait, there's more - - -
I checked my book and it says that "In addition to the first and last degrees of any zodiac sign, certain degrees were traditionally considered critical by virtue of lying on boundaries between the Mansions of the Moon" - not that I quite understand what the Mansions of the Moon are, but on further reference I found that a planet in 26 degrees in a cardinal sign is considered to be critical.

Well - Saturn is currently 27 deg 21 minutes in Cancer (Cardinal) BUT it is retrograde so it would be hitting the 26th critical degree pretty soon, and critical degrees signify a crisis situation!!!

Wow! This is sounding worse and worse - Good thing Saturn's not combust, I guess...........
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi MarG,

Yes it is very hard to judge your own horaries, particularly one that is as important as this. Technically, the chart is not radical as there isn't any agreement between the ascendant ruler and the planetary hour (unless I have completely the wrong chart).

Saturn does look to be in bad shape. This obviously does not mean that you will not marry this person. The aspects point to a coming together (Sun/Saturn has an allowable orb of 12 degrees). It might mean that he does have some problems that you are not yet aware of. Becoming aware of them might enable you to help in some way. I don't believe that horaries will give you a hard and fast answer unless we choose to look at it that way. Horaries aren't for telling us our future, they are for guiding us into our future. They are used to seek guidance on a matter of great importance. Forget all the technicalities of what Saturn peregrine means and just look at the message the chart is giving to you. Only you can really understand what it means. Having an understanding and an awareness of a situation makes it so much easier to deal with. Ultimately, you are in control.

Good luck
Sue
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:31 am    Post subject: To Ben, Taurus7 and Sue Reply with quote

Thanks to each of you for your comments. I will wait and see if anyone else responds then I will get back to all. This is fascinating and I have more studying to do. Each of you seem so concerned and I sincerely appreciate that.

MarG
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Possible marriage w/7th ruler Saturn r. in 12? Reply with quote

Quote:
The Moon will make a sextile to Saturn then the Sun will make a trine to Saturn. I'm thinking this is a positive answer but I'm not really sure.


Hi Marg,
just to add my two pence-worth, Lilly states in "Christian Astrology", aphorism 12, page 299:
" The application of the Moon to a planet in its fall shows anguish, trouble and delays in the thing demanded."

Now while Saturn isn't in the sign of his fall ( Aries ), he is in the sign of his detriment, and personally I would say that Lilly's caution would still obtain in this case. Also, the Moon rules the 12th house, so this horary is loaded with 12th house issues. I would concur with what the others here have said and advise you to tread very carefully before you make a committment to this man.
--
Pete
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Bulletbobb



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 132
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is close to hair-splitting, but with regards to the Mars-Saturn square it might be worth noting that it is a separating aspect, thus denoting something that has happened in the past. Since Mars is cardinal and cadent the one degree orb might indicate a month ago, but it's hard to say.

Since Saturn is in his 6th (work?) and Mars corules his tenth (and is in it's detriment in Libra), it might be reasonable to wonder if whatever his woebegone Saturn represents is due to some work-related issue? Has he lost his job recently?

Perhaps the wide orbs on the otherwise favorable Sun-Moon aspects are telling you to wait until whatever Saturn is showing has resolved itself.

Regards,

Bob
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Furthermore, Neptune on the descendant looks quite ominous - Either you are not thinking clearly about this situation, or you don't see him in a clear perspective, or he has some major issues of his own (p.s> he definitely has issues, because Saturn is in the 12th and in detriment). THere are definietly some "delusional" factors involved here.


Hi T,
Yes, I'd say that to have Neptune on the descendant in a horary about a relationship is going to introduce a "chameleon-like" factor into the description of the quesited, and this I think is made even more certain when we note that the antiscion degree of the Sun ( Marge ) sits right on that Neptune.
If A's sig had been in in dignity and a "good" house, then perhaps Neptune would have added an altruistic or artistic flavour to his temperament, but in this case, with the 12th house so strongly emphasised, I can only conclude that what you see is definitely not what you get.

Quote:
I don't have my software with me but I do believe that Saturn is also peregrine - he is drifting "aimlessly" - is he a "drifter"? does he have a job?


I just checked and Saturn is in his own terms, but that doesn't add much of a positive note to its condition.

Quote:
I would stay clear......


That would be my advice too.
There is always a choice offered in any horary, and while the application of the Moon to Saturn denotes a coming together, it doesn't necessarily mean that marriage is written in rock. Awareness is everything, and in this case, forewarned is forearmed.

Cheers...
--
Pete
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob

My response to your comment is for everyone who has commented as it will probably add more light to the Saturn/12th house situation.

Your reply regarding the separation of Mars from Saturn and using derivative houses is on the mark. I saw this but I was not sure how to read it.

With regard to Saturn's position and the 12th house activities: he is in law enforcement and thus deals a lot with what the 12th house represents. He is a go-getter but there is only so much time in a day to do all that he would like. so there have been frustrations. We both work at the same place so I know how things proceed. He is well regarded and is very good at what he does so there is no job jeopardy.

Thanks for your insight.

MarG
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MarG



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 77

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:32 pm    Post subject: (An opps, I need to fix the time for my posts) Reply with quote

Hi Pete

Thank you for your comment on the antiscion of the Sun and Neptune, but I don't understand why a "chameleon-like" factor in the description of the quesited would be made even more certain by the antiscion of the Sun sitting on Neptune. Is it because the antiscion (like sextile/trine) makes it more so Confused

I have read that Venus is used in horaries of marriage/love and Venus is in own sign, albeit in cadent house, but is in partile trine to Neptune and applying to trine of the 7th cusp. Wouldn't that add a positive note to, as you said, a more "altruistic or artistic" nature?

Looking forward for more Smile

MarG
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bulletbobb wrote:

Since Saturn is in his 6th (work?) and Mars corules his tenth (and is in it's detriment in Libra), it might be reasonable to wonder if whatever his woebegone Saturn represents is due to some work-related issue? Has he lost his job recently?

You know, I was thinking the same thing which is the reason I asked in my initial post if he had a job. I really don't think the 12 house emphasis is related to the kind of work he does - because the 12th house issues are being re-inforced by the location and condition of his ruler and Neptune on the descendant. And Mars on the cusp of your 4rth, his turned 10th, square his ascendant (albeit it is separating) seems to indicate to me that maybe something happened at his job that you may not be aware of.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Furthermore, Neptune on the descendant looks quite ominous -


Quote:
Yes, I'd say that to have Neptune on the descendant in a horary about a relationship is going to introduce a "chameleon-like" factor into the description of the quesited, and this I think is made even more certain when we note that the antiscion degree of the Sun ( Marge ) sits right on that Neptune......
I can only conclude that what you see is definitely not what you get.

I agree with Pete (as he is agreeing with me....). I think there is something hidden about this man that this horary is warning you to take heed. You should be cautious.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: (An opps, I need to fix the time for my posts) Reply with quote

[quote="MarG"]
Quote:
I have read that Venus is used in horaries of marriage/love and Venus is in own sign, albeit in cadent house, but is in partile trine to Neptune and applying to trine of the 7th cusp. Wouldn't that add a positive note to, as you said, a more "altruistic or artistic" nature?


I don't have the chart before me, but in love matters, Venus is also used to represent the woman and the Sun reprsents the man. The partile trine that you mention of Venus to Neptune, the way I see it, is further indicative of how you are "deceiving" yourself (if that's the correct word - but I think you know what I mean) about him or the true nature of your relationship with him. Neptune on the descendant brings the horary back to him.

Your comment about Venus reminds me of myself - maybe 6 months ago - when I tried to force "Yes's" or positives into my horaries that were clearly and bluntly saying "NO". I was creating translations when the horary was indicating prohibition. I was creating reunions when the horary was screaming separation. Pete, Deb and many other astute astrologers in this forum tried to make me understand the blunder of my ways - Pete was starting to think I was a hopeless case!!!! (-----I still remember that comment of yours - Sir Peter... Wink ). But thanks to his common-sense (albeit "heartless" at the time) responses to my posts, I think (or hope) I'm much more objective about my horaries at this point in time.

Maybe you should step back from this horary for a bit and it will be more clear to you in time. Until then - don't do anything!!!
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