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AP - Adding Up Those Hot and Colds (Temperaments)

 
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 10:27 pm    Post subject: AP - Adding Up Those Hot and Colds (Temperaments) Reply with quote

5 Oct 2003

Mark:

I have a question about how to add up all of those hots and colds in assessing temperament in a natal chart.

This is for my Moon.

It is in its last quarter, so it’s Cold and Moist
In Aquarius, which is Hot and Moist makes the Moon slightly cold and very moist, or C- M+

The Moon is trine Mars in Gemini. Mars is occidental so it’s dry, in Gemini which is hot and moist. So Mars is hot and somewhat dry, or H D-.

The Moon is also sextile Venus in Aries. Venus is occidental, so it’s moist In Aries, which is hot and dry, makes Venus hot and somewhat moist, or H M-

My problem is how to add these three things up. We have:

C- M+
H D-
H M-

My best guess is that if we combine them, we get: H M-

Is that right? I did that by adding them up - two H’s = H+, combined with a C- gave me a plain old H. And combined the M+ and the M- to get a plain old M, and added the D- gave me an M-.

Or do I add them up in order and start with the Moon itself, C- M+ and combine it with H D-, giving me C-- M? Then add the last part, H M-, to get C--- M-.

If I start with a “C-“, how many “H’s” can I add before the “C” becomes an “H”?

---------------------------

Deb:

How to add them up…
Using the factors you’ve considered (I haven’t checked these):

last quarter - Cold and Moist
In Aquarius - Hot and Moist
Trine Mars in Gemini - Hot and dry
sextile Venus in Aries - Hot and moist

[cold = 1 / hot = 3] [moist=3 / dry=1]

There is clearly a prevalence of hot and moist so I’d say that the temperament of your Moon is hot and moist based on that. Hopefully Tom will tell us if this is wrong, I'm no expert.

--------------------------

Tom:

Quote:
Hopefully Tom will tell us if this is wrong, I'm no expert.


This is one of those questions that requires a long answer and after I give it, you will find others who do it differently.

First I recommend John Frawley's book The Real Astrology Applied in which he addresses this subject. Frawley's method makes better sense than adding things up. Lilly's example in CA is the case in point. Lilly simply added up the testimonies and came to the wrong answer, by his own admission.

Lee Lehman also addresses this in her book Classical Astrology for Modern Living. Ever thorough, she lists three methods for each example and it gets quite involved but she doesn't do it like Frawley.

The Moon in question is cold and moist. The other testimonies qualify the cold and moist they don't change it. So it can't become hot no matter how much warmth is added. Frawley explains it this way: Take an effeminate man. No matter how many adjectives we use to describe him he does not become a woman.

So the Moon you list is:
C- M+
H D-
H M-


The heat reduces the cold it does not make it hot, therefore my judgment would be slightly cold and moist.

Aspects to the Moon should be tight, 3 degrees and no more usually, and they should be "in sign." Moon at 1 Taurus is not trine Venus at 29 Leo.

Quote:
Or do I add them up in order and start with the Moon itself, C- M+ and combine it with H D-, giving me C-- M? Then add the last part, H M-, to get C--- M-.


This is the way I was taught. Keep in mind, this is rough work. Frawley says when you do it to give your Virgo nature something else to do. It's good advice. A few times when I agonized over which way to go, I found that in the end it rarely made a difference in the final result.

Good luck, and try to get Frawley's book.

----------------------

Mark:

Everyone,

You know, before I wrote this I had thought that Tom’s version was right – that if a planet is by it’s nature and sign, say cold and moist, that no aspects with other planets could change that. That made sense to me.

But at least according to John Frawley, this isn’t right. I reread his The Real Astrology, chapter 17, page 180 and he gives this example: The Moon is … in Cancer, a cold, moist sign. After considering the Moon’s aspects which involve warm and moist planets, he says that the Moon, then, adds heat and moisture to the temperament.

So according to Frawley, a planet that starts out cold and moist can be moderated to be warm and moist.

----------------------------

Tom:

Mark,

I'll check the reference when I get home, but unless I misunderstand, this would seem to be contradicted in The Real Astrology Applied which dedicates a chapter to the subject, as well as contradicts what John teaches in his natal course. Give me a couple of days and I'll respond in detail. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.


--------------------------------

Mark:

Tom,

I agree with you, but I just re-read what John Frawley said and he does seem to say that aspects to a planet can change it from cold and moist to warm and moist.

I understand that the sign cannot change a planet's nature, it just modifies it.

In his example in The Real Astrology Applied he doesn't have a situation where an aspecting planet could change its nature.

I agree with you, this does sound fishy. Something must be wrong here.

------------------------

Deb:

A great book for understanding the use of temperaments is Graeme Tobyn's 'Culpeper's Medicine'. Although it obviously has a lot do with Culpeper and herbal medicine applied according to humoral principles, much of the book is about termperaments, their calculation and use.
There are links to details in his interview:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/tobyn.html


-------------------------

Tom:

Hi Mark,

I think I understand what John is getting to here. Your reference is to page 180 in The Real Astrology. The entire paragraph you referenced reads this way:

Quote:
"The Moon is cold and moist by nature, but again we need to find distinctive qualities for its effect in the individual chart. Here, it is in Cancer, a cold, moist sign. It is between new and first quarter, increasing its heat and moisture. It too is aspected by Mars, making it hotter, and slightly drier. The aspect to Jupiter is of minor importance, but can be taken into account as it is an applying aspect and Jupiter has strong dignity in the Moon's sign: hotter and and a little moister. The Moon, then adds heat and moisture to the temperament."


I think, Mark, the misunderstanding comes in the first sentence. "The Moon is cold and moist by nature." We don't start there. If we did everyone would have a phlegmatic Moon and a choleric Sun. We start with the Moon's position in her cycle: First quarter is warm and moist. It is this nature that is qualified, not the cold and moist, which is a given.

In the Real Astrology Applied, page 124, John writes:

Quote:
"When we consider the lights as part of our basic strategy of assessment, we do not count the Moon as being cold and moist, or the Sun as being hot and dry, as these are givens in every nature. But - very importantly - when we bump into them along the way we must. So if for example, the Ascendant ruler were the Sun (this not being a given in the nature), we would consider it as being hot and dry, qualified by its season and by its sign."



So, point #1: Unless Leo or Cancer are rising, the nature of the Sun and Moon are determined by the season, and qualified by aspects, antiscion, etc. See below for more detail on this.

Point #2: If Leo or Cancer rises, we begin with warm/dry or cold/moist and further qualify that by season, sign and aspects, etc.

Here's a real life example. I have Leo rising; we'll use me as an example that will undoubtedly turn out to have a most magnificent temperament . Leo rises ruled by the Sun in Pisces; there are no tight aspects.

Sun is hot and dry in a cold most sign. Slightly hot and slightly dry.

Moon in Cancer is in the second quarter. The Moon is hot and dry (not cold and moist) but modified by a cold moist sign. Slightly hot and slightly dry. Moon is square Venus in Aries. Venus is occidental, moist, and is in a hot, dry sign. The moist and dry cancel each other, so Venus adds a little heat to the moderately hot and dry Moon. I can get a bit testy at times, but not enough to overcome my essential lovable nature.

Now back to the Sun. This time we use the season as starting point. Sun in Pisces, cold and Moist in a cold moist sign: very cold and very moist. This is a very phlegmatic Sun that is not helped (qualified) by aspect.

The Sun is used in two different ways in the same chart in order to refine the assessment of temperament. I hope this is right as this is the way that I do it.

If you liked The Real Astrology, you will also enjoy The Real Astrology Applied. It is mostly a collection of articles John had written for his magazine, The Astrologer's Apprentice, and other astrological journals. If the price of the entire book is more than you want to pay for a single article, write to John at j@johnfrawley.com and order a copy of The Astrologer's Apprentice, issue No. 18. It contains the article I referred to in "Applied."

If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask, and I'll do my best to answer.

Tom

---------------------

Mark:

Tom,

Thanks, I think I have it. So for my Moon it would be:

Last quarter, so it’s Cold and Moist
In Aquarius, which is Hot and Moist makes the Moon slightly cold and very moist, or C- M+

The Moon is trine Mars in Gemini. Mars is occidental so it’s dry, in Gemini which is hot and moist. So Mars is hot and somewhat dry, or H D-.

The Moon is also sextile Venus in Aries. Venus is occidental, so it’s moist. It is in Aries, which is hot and dry, so this makes Venus hot and somewhat moist, or H M-

C- M+
H D-
H M-

Add these up and we get a Moon that is ever so slightly cool, and somewhat moist.

Now that I know that, what does it say about me?

------------------------

Tom:

In order to determine the temperament, we need to follow this procedure for the ASC and its ruler, the Moon, the Sun, and the Lord of the Geniture. Then we look at that list and determine which of the four temperaments dominate. There are often two with one being stronger than the other.

What this says about your Moon is that it is slightly phlegmatic or water-like. There is a tendency for your emotions to go in a variety of directions, and you may have a good imagination. I hesistate to delineate a single planet in this way as this is part of a greater whole.

Determining the temperament is important. It is the foundation of any good natal reading, but it is rough work. We can't put too fine a point on it. Temperament we're stuck with. It can be controlled to a point, but not changed (without drugs that is). It is not an absolute either. All cholerics are not alike, neither are all sanguine types alike.

The next step is to determine the wit and manner of the native or how this temperament is expressed. The most thorough examination I've seen on this is in The Astrologer's Apprentice No. 15. Frawley's delineation of Janis' Joplin's chart is most impressive, and demonstrates the depth a traditional reading can achieve.

Tom

-------------------------

Mark:

I have both of John Frawley’s books and Lilly’s book on natal charts. I have found my lord of the geniture, wit of the native, and significator of manners. However, I haven’t seen enough examples of what all this means. In particular, both John Frawley and Lilly devote pages to tell you how to tell if someone is sanguine or whatever, but they hardly give more than a sentence each to each type of temperament. Frawley gives one or two small examples of how someone should have a planet to activate their particular temperament, or to balance it out. Lilly said that my Mars/Mercury significator of manners gives me a piercing wit, which is beyond true. But I would like more than that little quip, no matter how dead-on accurate it is.

I really need a good book to explain this by examples. Maybe I’ll get that article on Janis Joplin, and just hope and pray that my chart doesn’t look too much like hers. Great singer, fascinating personality, but not too crazy about the ending.

Actually, my chart looks somewhat like Johnny Cash’s chart that Frawley gives in The Real Astrology Applied - the Sun in Pisces with Mercury in the 12th, Saturn as the lord of the geniture.

So what are some more books about natal charts? And are there any good books on electional charts? I am sure that somewhere I read that we should start with horary, then learn elections before moving onto natal charts. I have a downloaded a copy of Vivian Robson’s little book on elections, but elections as a subject seems to get ignored. I think Robson took elections a bit too seriously. I mean he talks about doing elections to find when it’s a good time to cook dinner. I can answer that with three words – when you’re hungry. Are there any other good books on elections?

------------------------

Mark:

Tom,

I am looking at a friend’s natal chart, and I think I know the answer to this, but I wanted to run this past you just to be sure.

I’ll cut to the chase and lets just assume I did the first part right. We are dealing with his lord of the geniture, which is Mars, square the Moon and trine with Jupiter. My basic assumption based on your previous posts is that no matter how much the Moon and Jupiter add in the way of moisture, it can’t fundamentally change Mar’s dryness. Is that right?

To sum it up:
Mars: H D-
Moon: C+ M+
Jupiter: H M+

Conclusion: H D--, hot and just a tiny bit dry.

Also, I notice that Lilly uses five points, not the four that John Frawley uses. Frawley combines two of Lilly’s points into one - the Ascendant and planets in the ascendant. Any thoughts about if that makes a difference?

And finally, how large of an orb should I use? Frawley says to use 4-5 when dealing with the ascendant, but what about when dealing with planets? For example, my Sun is 4 away from being in an exact square with Mars. Should I consider that when dealing with my temperament?

And I already know what that Sun square Mars mean, my blasted bad temper.

------------------------

Tom:

Quote:
My basic assumption based on your previous posts is that no matter how much the Moon and Jupiter add in the way of moisture, it can’t fundamentally change Mar’s dryness. Is that right?


Yes, this is the method John Frawley teaches. The degree or amount of moisture can change, but it can't go away.

Quote:
To sum it up:
Mars: H D-
Moon: C+ M+
Jupiter: H M+

Conclusion: H D--, hot and just a tiny bit dry.


Yes

Quote:
Also, I notice that Lilly uses five points, not the four that John Frawley uses. Frawley combines two of Lilly’s points into one - the Ascendant and planets in the ascendant. Any thoughts about if that makes a difference?


I never thought about it. Lee Lehman uses five, if I recall correctly. I suppose the idea is that the ASC and ruler are so connected that separating them is getting a little too fine. Remember, this is rough work, not micro surgery, and John likes to simplify wherever possible. Try it both ways to see if it can make a difference. I wouldn't be surprised to see that it doesn't.

Quote:
And finally, how large of an orb should I use? Frawley says to use 4-5 when dealing with the ascendant, but what about when dealing with planets? For example, my Sun is 4 away from being in an exact square with Mars. Should I consider that when dealing with my temperament?


After astrologers get done fighting about houses, they next throw down the gauntlet over "orbs." In traditional astroogy the orb is the sphere of influence or the light emanating from the planet. The moiety or half orb is what we deal with. Some traditionalits allow pretty hefty "orbs," which may be a hangover from Hellenistic astrology where aspect by sign was enough. However the closer the aspect by degree the tighter the influence.

In your case if the Sun was applying to Mars, or if Mars is Rx and they apply to each other, I'd use the wider orb. If it was separating, I wouldn't bother with it. Since this is a qualifier, I doubt it would make or break your judgment. I tend to keep the planets at 3-4 degrees.

Tom
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AP - This is an archived post, but may still be responded to.
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