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Water Sign Triplicity Day Ruler: Venus or Mars?

 
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:47 am    Post subject: Water Sign Triplicity Day Ruler: Venus or Mars? Reply with quote

I can’t seem to make any progress deciding this one—Mars or Venus? My natal chart is a day chart with 5 of the 7 traditional planets in a water grand trine, so the water triplicity ruler would appear to be extra important. In adding the essential dignity scores for my chart it makes a substantial difference with the 2 choices. I often come across references to important uses of triplicities and find it frustrating not knowing which to use.

I am aware that Lilly followed Ptolemy and used Mars for both day and night. However, there seems to be a firm and solid tradition before him of using Venus for day and Mars for night. Lee Lehman uses Venus as day ruler. (Maybe she switches between the two—is that permissible?)

I know that there are resources here discussing the dignities. What I am interested in is which ruler the other forum members have decided to use. How did you make your decision? Are you comfortable with it? Do you sometimes use either one? Can you give me any suggestions, things to consider, for making my decision? There seem to be a lot of Lilly followers here, so I suspect that Mars will be favored. I personally lean toward Venus. Usually. It depends on my mood.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What I am interested in is which ruler the other forum members have decided to use.


I use Mars

Quote:
How did you make your decision?


I was taught to use Mars at the time that no one was aware of alternatives.

Quote:
Are you comfortable with it?


Not entirely. I always thought it was a convoluted logic that gave Mars dignity in the water triplicity. It’s an inverted philosophy – Mars is less damaging when its power is moderated by an unsuitable environment. I have a hard time equating that to the traditional understanding of ‘dignity’.

Quote:
Do you sometimes use either one?


I’d never switch from one to the other. Since I’ve gone through the mental hoops with this so many times I’ll probably stick with Mars on the basis of ‘better the devil you know’. It hasn’t caused me any problems in practical application so I don’t feel a motivation to change.

Quote:
Can you give me any suggestions, things to consider, for making my decision?


Think it through and make a decision one way or the other. I always think it’s best to find an authority whose methods and results demonstrate the type of astrology that you want to practice for yourself, then learn to emulate them as best you can until eventually you are confident enough to recognise and develop your own style. That’s why, as a whole, I follow Lilly’s approach and trust his methods to work as an integrated system, even though I’m tempted to pick holes in bits of it.

I'd be interested to hear other views on this.
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Ben



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Location: Minneapolis, MN USA

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I use Venus -- i.e., Dorotheus's system. It differs from Lilly's/Ptolemy's especially since it uses three rulers: Venus-Mars-Moon by day, Mars-Venus-Moon by night. Just as Ptolemy introduced his own version of the terms, my impression is that he introduced his own triplicity rulers (I don't think anyone else in antiquity before him used them). Whom you follow depends on whom you study, I bet.

I use Dorotheus mainly because my teacher did, and because the Arabs/Persians/Jews and Bonatti did. From Morinus's writings it looks like astrological reformers following the spirit of the Protestant reformation decided to change the triplicity rulers to something more "rational" and less tradition-bound (I don't have the book in front of me to check their names, but I think Junctinus and Schoener were mentioned).

I haven't made a real study of the practical differences between them. But it seems to me there are at least two reasons why it might be difficult to do so:

1. The two main triplicity rulers are pretty much the same between Ptolemy and Dorotheus, so for most purposes you wouldn't notice a difference.

2. Predicting by triplicity rulers (i.e., assigning 1/3 of life to each ruler of the ASC or another cusp) or using them to judge the effectiveness of the planet they rule only allows very general qualitative information, so it's hard to make fine-grained interpretations with them. Normally they are integrated into a number of other factors when delineating.

It would be great if someone who's seen clear-cut differences in interpretation using them would address this.

Those are my off-the-cuff thoughts.

Best,
Ben
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies. It is interesting that two knowledgeable people can use different methods and both do such good work. It’s all about discipline and consistency, isn’t it? I am just too scattered in working with astrology (Ok, and everything else). A solid conceptual structure leads to a clear focus. It’s the focus that brings the results, rather than the structure itself. Switching between method options would not only lead to poor results, but would be a sign of a weak foundation.

Quote:
I always think it’s best to find an authority whose methods and results demonstrate the type of astrology that you want to practice for yourself, then learn to emulate them as best you can until eventually you are confident enough to recognise and develop your own style.


Deb,
With your usual clarity you have summed it up and given excellent practical and useful advice. I could use some of those firmly-planted Taurus heels (hooves?). It seems like what you wrote should be obvious, but it didn’t really soak in until I read this. Maybe I was ready to hear it.

Ben,
Last night I was working with triplicity rulers for prediction. That is what led me to try and clarify this issue. And what was I doing trying to predict with triplicity rulers! Whoa, boy! First things first. When I initially came across the Dorotheus system there was a little voice saying “That’s the way I want to go”. I don’t know why. Great ‘Happiness’ article, by the way.

Actually, this issue is nothing compared to the anguish I am still going through in trying to pick a house system. The quote from Deb just might guide me through that one.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to go further into why I am interested in the triplicity ruler. As I mentioned, I have a water grand trine: Sun conjunct Mercury in Cancer, trine Moon conjunct Saturn in Scorpio, trine Mars in Pisces. The orbs are tight, so there is little doubt that this is a major configuration. Wouldn’t most traditional astrologers say that the water element is of top priority in this chart, and that the triplicity ruler would be more important than would normally be the case? With both the Sun and Moon involved it seems like we are dealing with the core of the chart here. Also, the Moon is the Sun's dispositor and Mars is the dispositor of the Moon and Saturn. All in water.

This also recently gave me an interesting angle on the fact that the two possible rulers, Venus and Mars, are square in my chart. Maybe I’m just destined to always have battles between the two. This current Venus/Mars theme may be a reflection of the fact that transiting Pluto is finishing two years of squaring natal Mars (from the first house) and last spring started it’s two years of opposing natal Venus. Is it far-fetched to say that a major transit to the ruler would affect the entire grand trine? The transit to Mars was so major and profound that it would seem to indicate Mars as the triplicity ruler. But maybe what I'm seeing is the influence of Mars being the dispositor of the Moon/Saturn conjunction. The answer may be clearer in two years when Pluto has finished with Venus. Anyway, I have gotten too much into my personal case and would appreciate more thoughts on the Venus/Mars rulership issue.

I do want to use this opportunity to say that while I see the importance of backing away from over-emphasizing the outer planets in interpreting a natal chart, the experience of the past 5 years since Pluto crossed the Ascendant has shown me the power of transiting Pluto, and in characteristic ways that clearly say that it was Pluto speaking.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't help but comment on this to throw a little more confusion into the topic. I was taught to use Mars as a day and night tirplicty ruler for water in horary, but I use the three triplicity system in natal since Lilly doesn't give a participating ruler for water (or anything else). By switching to Dorotheus I can use the one-third system Ben referenced (which, like Ben I've found to be less than fine).

Tom
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also don't like to use Mars as the day-ruler of the water triplicity. In my view, Mars doesn't need any further encouragement to work his own particular brand of mischief, so it seems odd to give him unnecessary influence in a diurnal chart.
Saturn rules air in a diurnal nativity, but has no such influence in a nocturnal one, which is just as it should be, imo.
So if we must give Mars influence in the water signs, then let's keep him nocturnal and give Venus rulership over the diurnal half of the day.

Just my thoughts on it, FWTW...
==
Pete
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I also don't like to use Mars as the day-ruler of the water triplicity. In my view, Mars doesn't need any further encouragement to work his own particular brand of mischief, so it seems odd to give him unnecessary influence in a diurnal chart.


But since Mars rules a water sign, Scorpio, all of the time, why should it cause more problems as a triplicity ruler?

Tom
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom & Pete,

I appreciate your replies. I am interested in Tom’s ‘inconsistency’ of use. Applying two systems to different uses of astrology (horary & natal) seems justifiable. I would consider doing it, after much practical experience.

Now for the fun stuff. I posted this topic to clarify for myself (and perhaps others) this Venus/Mars rulership issue. Until a few minutes ago I didn’t make the connection with the fact that transiting Venus and Mars were coming into conjunction in Scorpio, a water sign. The conjunction was exact about two and a half hours ago. And to make it a little more fun, the three most recent forum members to post during this conjunction (Pete, Tom, and myself) all have water sign Suns. It helps to temporarily put aside the burning astrological questions, sit back, and just enjoy the surprises.
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Cazimi360



Joined: 24 Nov 2004
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Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:45 pm    Post subject: Question regarding Mars... Reply with quote

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Last edited by Cazimi360 on Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deb
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Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you agree with the above quotation regarding Mars in Libra or not?

Only to an extent. It's a little like saying that a powerful and therefore potentially dangerous animal is best kept sedated. Mars in Libra may be less capable of overt damage, but it’s not well placed because its energy is merely thwarted. Remember, it doesn’t bring any indication of control, and Mars’s potential for positive, focussed expression has also been undermined. Any planet, and any planet in any position can bring damage – the ideal situation is usually where the planets operate at maximum efficiency with a realisation of conscious application.

One of the reasons why Mars is dignified in Aries is that its potential for pure expression is greater in that sign, in the same way that Saturn has a greater potential for pure expression in Capricorn rather than Cancer. Mars can never be a ‘pleasant’ planet because its principle concerns the need to fight against oppression and hostility, and bring conflicts to a head. It gets no real benefit from being in a ‘refined’ setting or in the signs where it is frustrated. This usually shows discomfort with expressing the martial principle, so mostly, rather than suggesting it is handled delicately and moderately, it suggests it is handled badly and inefficiently. That can bring a lot more damage in the long run.

Also consider that Mars strives to dominate, so – as strange as it sounds – constraining it within an environment of fairness and equality can bring a lot more damage than when it reigns freely. Think about how, in nature, most male animals need to fight to claim territory or a mate. Where one animal is clearly stronger and more powerful than the other, the fight causes little damage because threats and a show of strength are enough to see the challenger off. The bloodiest battles are those where the opponents are evenly matched, because then neither gives up until one or both are seriously injured or killed. The point I’m making is that we’d all prefer to live in harmony and not need to have a Mars at all, but when we get into martial situations it’s best to have a strong one.
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some days I would give anything to have Mars in Aries. Unfortunately, it is in Cancer in the 6th house. I don't get angry very often. I was brought up that way basically. I wasn't allowed to show anger. I realised when thinking about this post that I've never seen my father get angry. I checked it out and, sure enough, he has Mars in Cancer. But this can be a real problem at times. The thing is that it doesn't stop me from feeling anger, just expressing it. I have spent the last couple of months being angry about something but the only expression of it I have had is a lot of sleepless nights. If I had Mars in Aries, I could have just expressed my anger and gone on to have a peaceful sleep, leaving a trail of destruction behind me. But, the thing about birth charts is that we get what we get.
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EstebonGone



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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Location: CASCADIAN TOMB

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In regards to the diurnal water triplicity ruler, i use Venus. In regards to the Question of the bearing this has on Kirk's Grand Water Trine, i would say to treat it in a manner consistent with any other use of it. The only relation i see (based on your input and not looking at the chart) is Venus despositing Mars by exaltation. the trine indicates the relation these planets/signs/houses have to one another, how these areas of life interact with each other. using Venus as a triplicity ruler for prediciton would bring the Mars (through Pisces) into the arena of expression, but i don't think Venus is going to "activate" this GT.
on another note, relating to Mars in Cancer. i have a friend with a partner who has Mars in Cancer/first house! while explosions are almost non-existant, he is constantly at a "low-boil" and takes serious emotional offense to most things (cannot let go of hurt feelings, very scorpion).
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EstebonGone,

Thanks for your thoughts. I have been catching myself making my choice of Venus or Mars based on my own chart. All these planets in the water grand trine have tempted me to decide by judging which feels right based on my own experience—probably not the best way to develop a sound and flexible understanding. If I can detach myself from the water element I just might finally come to a decision. For now I will just let the two battle it out for the position.

Kirk
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