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US Presidential Contest 2012-Obama vs Romney
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3361
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aquastella

your post is a fine example of why relying on one astro factor to express a high degree of confidence on the outcome is a poor way to do astrology..

same goes for the undue obsession with mercury retro which seemed to cloud many astrologers viewpoint on this election..

now i guess all those who got it right can open the door up to hubris in thinking it was due there superior technical knowledge or particular approach, overlooking others who might have used similar techniques and came to the opposite position here.. at least a few folks stuck their neck out and made a prediction!

lucky or unlucky guesses, that's all..
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4986
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
....same goes for the undue obsession with mercury retro which seemed to cloud many astrologers viewpoint on this election..


Yep. I think I demonstrated that in the thread that looked at previous elections with Mercury Rx.

James_M
Quote:
now i guess all those who got it right can open the door up to hubris in thinking it was due there superior technical knowledge or particular approach, overlooking others who might have used similar techniques and came to the opposite position here.. at least a few folks stuck their neck out and made a prediction!


Well put!

Quote:
lucky or unlucky guesses, that's all..


Well thats the view of many. Its a bit over cynical for me. I do hold out the hope we can learn from experiences like this and improve our technique. However, I think we should probably wait until we call our third or fourth election correctly before thinking we are on to something astrologically.

Any astrologer feeling a bit smug about the accuracy of their predictive technique following this result might want to keep this in mind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Octopus

I have yet to see any astrologer come close to the success of Paul the Octopus at the last World Cup. Shocked

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3361
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

paul the octopus is just a lucky guesser,lol...

i do remember all the work you went to the trouble of doing on past elections and mercury retro and while i neglected to mention that, i did really dig the fact you had done that.. thanks again for doing that!

me cynical? i suppose... i see astrology floundering in the darkness for the most part and astrologers being arrogant enough to think they actually know a lot based on not much of anything.. i wish there was more curiousity rather then less.. it seems to me folks are so attached to their particular approach they can't get beyond there particular approach.. i suppose i can be accused of having one too, but i maintain we know a lot less about astrology then we think we do and i would be the first person to shoot down someone else for thinking they know all that much about astrology, lol... thanks for initiating this thread and providing some ongoing juice to the conversation!
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 970
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Romney does have some very spectacular things happening in 2016 and 2024. Should he choose to run again, I would most likely predict a Romney victory in either of those years. He reaches his 10th from fortune in ZR and annual 10th house profection in 2016 and then after the bond loosing from Capricorn to Cancer, both the exaltation lord and domicile lord (Jupiter/Moon) are encountered in the 10th from fortune in 2024. Also the annual profection of 2024 of the ascendant hands over to Scorpio (his 10th from fortune). Both of those years are extremely brilliant for him whatever he chooses to do.
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 970
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
aquastella

your post is a fine example of why relying on one astro factor to express a high degree of confidence on the outcome is a poor way to do astrology..

same goes for the undue obsession with mercury retro which seemed to cloud many astrologers viewpoint on this election..

now i guess all those who got it right can open the door up to hubris in thinking it was due there superior technical knowledge or particular approach, overlooking others who might have used similar techniques and came to the opposite position here.. at least a few folks stuck their neck out and made a prediction!

lucky or unlucky guesses, that's all..


Well, it was near unanimous that everyone expected Mercury Rx to cause more problems than this. Perhaps the fact that most voting occurred before the actual onset of Rx helped bail it out, but stations have been noted for causing problems too. One theory has it that stationing planets are actually more powerful because they concentrate their energy in one place, like holding your hand over a candle…

I’ve shown how the same symbolism can be interpreted both ways in my prediction. Every astrologer should be able to do this and if you can’t see a plausible scenario where either side can win, then either it will be a landslide or you haven’t been practicing astrology long enough.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
[...] and i would be the first person to shoot down someone else for thinking they know all that much about astrology, lol...

? ? ?
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting what SA astrologer Choudry said:

"The presence of Sun and Mercury in the tenth house, of Saturn the tenth lord in
the third house and of the Moon being lord of the third house in the seventh
house take the person to politics. The third house is the house of leadership.
I saw ( i )the weakness of the Sun and the Sun like planet, Moon, in his chart (
ii ) the influence of Rahu on Venus ( iii) transit Saturn in the sixth house (iv
) transit Sun in the sixth house ( v ) the prolonged transit influence of Rahu
and Ketu on his natal Moon and Jupiter which would obstruct the success"

We tropical astrologers would probably think his Sun is strong because it was in 10 th house, ignoring that sideral Sun in Aquarius is weak
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

damon wrote:
Interesting what SA astrologer Choudry said:

"The presence of Sun and Mercury in the tenth house, of Saturn the tenth lord in
the third house and of the Moon being lord of the third house in the seventh
house take the person to politics. The third house is the house of leadership.
I saw ( i )the weakness of the Sun and the Sun like planet, Moon, in his chart (
ii ) the influence of Rahu on Venus ( iii) transit Saturn in the sixth house (iv
) transit Sun in the sixth house ( v ) the prolonged transit influence of Rahu
and Ketu on his natal Moon and Jupiter which would obstruct the success"

We tropical astrologers would probably think his Sun is strong because it was in 10 th house, ignoring that sideral Sun in Aquarius is weak


Choudhary uses Jyotish techniques and then Sun in Aquarius is not considered in detriment.That is a western sidereal concept.So,in all probability, he is talking of some other concept of weakness(like being in a debilitated 9th division- eg: in Libra in D-9).


Last edited by pankajdubey on Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This not a post event gloating.

I used two techniques, both fateful and fatalististic- they worked.

Obama and Romney- Synastry.
John Kerry's fate pushing Obama.

Let us see if Kerry is the next Secretary of State.
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curtis wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps the fact that most voting occurred before the actual onset of Rx helped bail it out,


This raises an interesting question and Geoffrey Cornelius wrote a book about it. Are inception charts the only way to go? I don't know the answer, but it is an important question.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 946
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's time for a lot of astrologers to rethink Mercury retrograde.

It amazes me that it is such an astrological bogeyman, yet somehow a lot of planes still fly on time, good contracts get signed, elections proceed without hitch, and so on.

Don't get me wrong, folks: I am no religious fundamentalist, so atheists please don't bite my head off: but last night the biblical injunction against prognostication popped into my head. It is basically that God can alter the outcome of mundane events, thus confounding the prognosticators' predictions (Isaiah 47:13). With the election predicted to be so close, the religious people amongst us might wonder.

And also, darned if I know how one can predict whether an election will go either way. I think you can tell if a candidate will have a good or bad day, if his chart is or is not a good match with the national chart of your choice, and so on. You can look at a mundane chart and draw some inferences from it, but I am not sure it can capture the complexity of the US electoral system

No doubt Romney is deeply disappointed, but for the astrologers who predicted his election, we could imagine that, as a man of faith surrounded by his adoring (and extensive) family and with his millions to console him, he was able to pull some goodness out of last night's defeat.

Moreover, the pundits are moving on from chewing over the election to talking about the impending US "fiscal cliff." The world and the US are by no means beyond global economic crisis. Winning the Presidency could turn out to be a terrible burden for Barack Obama. (The poisoned chalice.)

Today's pundits are saying that Romney lost primarily because he offended Hispanic voters and due to high African American turn-out. So this looks like demographics and identity politics to me. Not sure if one can or should model these variables into an astrological prediction.

As you just pointed out, the popularity of early voting (with Oregon and Washington state entirely on a mail-in ballot system now) may blow the efficacy of inception charts out of the water.

Anyway, it's all been very interesting.
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
damon wrote:
Interesting what SA astrologer Choudry said:

"The presence of Sun and Mercury in the tenth house, of Saturn the tenth lord in
the third house and of the Moon being lord of the third house in the seventh
house take the person to politics. The third house is the house of leadership.
I saw ( i )the weakness of the Sun and the Sun like planet, Moon, in his chart (
ii ) the influence of Rahu on Venus ( iii) transit Saturn in the sixth house (iv
) transit Sun in the sixth house ( v ) the prolonged transit influence of Rahu
and Ketu on his natal Moon and Jupiter which would obstruct the success"

We tropical astrologers would probably think his Sun is strong because it was in 10 th house, ignoring that sideral Sun in Aquarius is weak


Choudhary uses Jyotish techniques and then Sun in Aquarius is not considered in detriment.That is a western sidereal concept.So,in all probability, he is talking of some other concept of weakness(like being in a debilitated 9th division- eg: in Libra in D-9).


Ill have a look
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4986
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoidsoft wrote:
Quote:
Well, it was near unanimous that everyone expected Mercury Rx to cause more problems than this.


I did offer research weeks ago showing that in the 4 previous occasions (since 1856) with Mercury Rx or stationary only 2 out the 4 had produced any electoral irregularities or tight results. Now we have 5 of such results. Clearly only 2 out of those 5 produced electoral issues. In other words in 60% of Presidential elections with Mercury Rx or retrograde nothing that unusual happened electorally.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6997

Zoidsoft wrote:
Quote:
I’ve shown how the same symbolism can be interpreted both ways in my prediction. Every astrologer should be able to do this and if you can’t see a plausible scenario where either side can win, then either it will be a landslide or you haven’t been practicing astrology long enough.


Good to see some humility and common sense. Not qualities I expect all those that predicted an Obama victory to possess.

At the other extreme of the determinism argument I was chatting to Bernadette Brady at the weekend during a Conference we both attended here in Scotland about her approach to this. She makes a very strong case for her visual approach as a mundane predictive tool. She has now predicted two US elections correct on the trot and she already predicts the outcome of the next election will be a Democrat one term presidency followed by a Republican Presidency.

Of course this kind of long range prediction raises all kinds of free will and determinism issues. Confused

Waybread wrote:
Quote:
As you just pointed out, the popularity of early voting (with Oregon and Washington state entirely on a mail-in ballot system now) may blow the efficacy of inception charts out of the water.


I pointed this issue out in 2010 at the UK and Australian elections. Increasingly postal voting means the 'opening of polls' is no longer the big moment it used to be. If this is a contest the opening of polls is increasingly no longer its beginning.

This election has raised a lot of questions for me but few answers yet. One thing I do want to do is have an ingress chart retrospective thread. I dont just want to look at the US elections but recent charts for the French Presidency and UK and Australian elections. I want to examine if the traditional ingress chart is really an effective tool to predict elections with and whether the traditional delineation method actually works in practice for elections.

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:20 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

Well thats the view of many. Its a bit over cynical for me. I do hold out the hope we can learn from experiences like this and improve our technique. However, I think we should probably wait until we call our third or fourth election correctly before thinking we are on to something astrologically.



So shall we have some intelligent banter about the can and should Mundane Astro's predict these types of events.

When I put the BBC News on today I was thinking if a winner had already been declared this was a kick in the face for the predictors. But I guess we can say with our fair hats on many came out of it with a worth trying another day face since there seemed to be a 2/1 type Obama vote.

The pundits seem to be saying the (young) Hispanics won it for Big O?,

I think the rational approach is open up Microsoft excel and plot the last 15 presidential elections predictions, could have some data retrieval issues here, and see if anyone is geting 11 plus. Recent ones seem to be close odds on the day wise, so if not 50/50 - 55/45 type ratios. Thus 11 -12 from 15 seems like a potential maybe they can stat.

There is surely, re should they even bother or is this a transgression of deeper Astro principles and practices, a case to be made for informing this 'should they' with a 'can they' at the outset.

That being said I am an erratic contributor here, must get back to Barbualt and all that............

Enfin, a great result (although this time like the Chicago mobsters I was not crying like a baby - all a bit low key) he may not want all meat eaters put in gas chambers like some of us, but a vote for a marginally more compassionate and progressive USA all the same.

Quote:
Of course this kind of long range prediction raises all kinds of free will and determinism issues. Confused


Just seen this, getting right into the nub of it. Did you say to Bernie are you going to write a letter to the White House saying holding these elections is pointless and I am saving you billions of dollars, so send me a few grand and if not then 'please stop wasting my time'?
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
james_m wrote:
aquastella

your post is a fine example of why relying on one astro factor to express a high degree of confidence on the outcome is a poor way to do astrology..

same goes for the undue obsession with mercury retro which seemed to cloud many astrologers viewpoint on this election..

now i guess all those who got it right can open the door up to hubris in thinking it was due there superior technical knowledge or particular approach, overlooking others who might have used similar techniques and came to the opposite position here.. at least a few folks stuck their neck out and made a prediction!

lucky or unlucky guesses, that's all..


Well, it was near unanimous that everyone expected Mercury Rx to cause more problems than this. Perhaps the fact that most voting occurred before the actual onset of Rx helped bail it out, but stations have been noted for causing problems too. One theory has it that stationing planets are actually more powerful because they concentrate their energy in one place, like holding your hand over a candle…

I’ve shown how the same symbolism can be interpreted both ways in my prediction. Every astrologer should be able to do this and if you can’t see a plausible scenario where either side can win, then either it will be a landslide or you haven’t been practicing astrology long enough.


I just don't get this.
So, in a scenario which is so close that either side could win, there would be a landslide !!

I think that the electoral college was setup as a magnifier.It makes small victories in popular vote appear huge in electoral college victories.This is not so in multi-party democracies, there ,coalitions are formed. In US it churns out fighting triumvirates- The President, the Congress and the Senate.
We have to find ways to predict the electoral college representation(winner takes all) or as Brady- go by determinism or maybe Brady has just found that.
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