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US Presidential Contest 2012-Obama vs Romney
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
james_m wrote:
aquastella

your post is a fine example of why relying on one astro factor to express a high degree of confidence on the outcome is a poor way to do astrology..

same goes for the undue obsession with mercury retro which seemed to cloud many astrologers viewpoint on this election..

now i guess all those who got it right can open the door up to hubris in thinking it was due there superior technical knowledge or particular approach, overlooking others who might have used similar techniques and came to the opposite position here.. at least a few folks stuck their neck out and made a prediction!

lucky or unlucky guesses, that's all..



Well, it was near unanimous that everyone expected Mercury Rx to cause more problems than this. Perhaps the fact that most voting occurred before the actual onset of Rx helped bail it out, but stations have been noted for causing problems too. One theory has it that stationing planets are actually more powerful because they concentrate their energy in one place, like holding your hand over a candle…

I’ve shown how the same symbolism can be interpreted both ways in my prediction. Every astrologer should be able to do this and if you can’t see a plausible scenario where either side can win, then either it will be a landslide or you haven’t been practicing astrology long enough.


curtis,

one can say what they want about however many astrologers relied on mercury retro as an important defining feature of this past election.. the fact remains none of it amounts to anything other then the need to examine more closely the deep attachment that many astrologers have to the relevance of mercury retro.. i see this as the main problem that astrologers are foolish not to want to examine more closely..

on the topic of stationary planets and giving them greater relevance, this is what i have been pushing for, for some time. i mentioned just this in my comments at november 5th thread here http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6959

i think stationary planets are a big deal and as i was saying in the nov 5th post, i think the window for them has to be wider then most astrologers seem to consider - 4 or 5 days perhaps.. just how this might impact mundane astrology as opposed to natal astrology, i am not clear on, but in natal astrology i personally think it is a really big deal. thanks for your comments.

johannes susato wrote:
james_m wrote:
[...] and i would be the first person to shoot down someone else for thinking they know all that much about astrology, lol...

? ? ?


hi johannes,

i seem to recall having a conversation with you on the philosophy channel but you disappeared and were not seen again only to turn up here! until you answer my questions over there, i have no answer for you over here!

cheers james
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


i think stationary planets are a big deal and as i was saying in the nov 5th post, i think the window for them has to be wider then most astrologers seem to consider - 4 or 5 days perhaps..



Maybe the 7 days mentioned by Paulus and Porphirius for the heliacal rising phase ? Very Happy

Put jokes aside, 7 days are too much for me for a station, especially about Mercury, but 2-3 days it could be ok in my opinion

margherita
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe the 7 days mentioned by Paulus and Porphirius for the heliacal rising phase ?


Nice one Margherita. Your merciless. Smile

Mark
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Credibility of statistics? Reply with quote

Good evening,

There has been a flurry of posts in this thread concerning the population segmentation of the USofA by ethnic origins, after Regulus' post about the mundane astrology of the purchase of the 'Louisiana territories' and of the belligerent conquest of a number of former Spanish and / or Mexican provinces.

Do most astrologers and others in the USofA really lend much credibility to officially or otherwise published statistics? Are people required by law to be truthful about their ethnic origins with controls and sanctions? Cannot assimilated people of more northern appearance or resulting from intermarriages amongst races change groups? Are not statistics manipulated for economic and political motives?

Here we have an often repeated saying something like: "Believe only the numbers you have falsified yourself."

Best regards,

lihin
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks margherita..

i don't know what porphirius said as i haven't read any translations from him. as for paulus, i note lots of confusing lingo that doesn't happen to include the word heliacal.. it is interesting how on page 85 of her paulus translation the footnote emphasizes how important some of the terms like "morning rising" and "evening setting" are to understand. she refers to them as "loaded terms".. maybe heliacal would have been better! isn't deb houlding working towards a book on just this topic?

maybe you can tell us more about the 7 days mentioned by these two. that would be nice!

i agree that a window of even 2-3 days for a stationary period is better then what i often see happening where it is a razor thin moment down to the millisecond defined as either retro or direct.. i suppose these concepts are unrelated to the topic here as well, so maybe someone would like to start a thread on this topic of what is 'stationary' and how does one define it in terms of length and etc. etc.
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waybread



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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lithin, the US census is conducted every 10 years. Americans are asked to self-identify by race. Race isn't a category that most social scientists would use any more, but it is what it is on the census form. The census allows people to pick more than one category. We might imagine Tiger Woods, for example, identifying as both African American and Asian. Latino/Hispanic identity is a linguistic affiliation, not a racial affiliation, however.

As with any developed western country today, the census is as accurate as the Census Bureau knows how to make it. Of course people can lie or refuse to fill it their form, but then census-takers and pollsters have additional methods to fact-check their results. States and independent pollsters can also develop their own results, and these can be cross-checked.

It is pretty well known which sort of people who are under-represented, notably people with no fixed address, such as the homeless.

Americans are required by law to fill out their census forms truthfully, but the fine for refusal is only $100 to $500, assuming they get caught.

The purpose of the census isn't for political manipulation, but it is mandated in the US Constitution for purposes of apportioning congressional districts by state for the House of Representatives, one per roughly every 700,00 people. Some of the new districts get woefully gerrymandered by state legislatures, but the census itself doesn't set the boundaries.

The number of congressional seats (House + Senate) in turn determines the states' Electoral College votes. Every state except Maine does a "winner take all sweepstakes" with its Electoral College. California may split 51%/49% over the Republication and Democratic candidate, but all of its whopping 55 votes will go for the candidate with 51%.

And just to come full circle with astrology, if we get under the hood of how the US presidential election system really works, I find it increasingly difficult to see that the mundane astrology of the sort indicated on this website (ingress charts, cf. CEO Carter on mundane astrology) is a very good fit. US federal elections are enormously complex systems, and calling the moon "the people" or the 10th house "rulers" doesn't do justice to this complex system.

I'm not sure that traditional astrologers of the past developed better systems, because their governments were oftentimes monarchies or their equivalent.

What astrology maybe does, in skillful hands, is cut through all of the complexity to pick a winner, regardless of how poorly the rationales in mundane astrology match up how a political system actually functions.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

curtis,

one can say what they want about however many astrologers relied on mercury retro as an important defining feature of this past election.. the fact remains none of it amounts to anything other then the need to examine more closely the deep attachment that many astrologers have to the relevance of mercury retro.. i see this as the main problem that astrologers are foolish not to want to examine more closely..


I thought it was clear that I was hinting at this...
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margherita



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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


maybe you can tell us more about the 7 days mentioned by these two. that would be nice!




"The lord of the nativity on the one hand and the Ruler of the MC they define, particularly if it is angular [and] effective, but if not, the one that is close to the MC, for instance in the highest part of the nativity – which is the one ruling actions – and if not that one, then the one that is cadent to the MC.
And the first, the Lord of the ASC or the one that is posited on it in the domicile and the terms, either the one of the Moon, or the one of the MC, or the one of the [Lot of] Fortune, or the one 7 days before birth, or within 7 days making a phase of the rising or the setting or of a station."
(Porphirius Holden trans. page 24- it's the chapter of the nautical metaphor)

But if none of the aforesaid stars stands upon one of these places, nor indeed upon the LoF, it is fitting to seek which of the stars of Kronos, Zeus, Ares has come to the notice of the Moon or the Sun by application, or should happen to have made a morning appearance (or which of the stars of either Aphrodite or Hermes has made an evening rising), seven days before or seven days after birth. (Paulus of Alexandria, Hindsight trans. page 59)

margherita
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:


But I agree that Mercury retrograde on election day is likely to indicate that the election isn't over on that date and will be similar to the 2000 election where a final decision takes a few weeks.


hi curtis,

you did mention stationary planets having more relevance in your post that i quoted nov 13th, but then you mentioned this too in a much earlier post..
i did like the fact you mentioned this quote below, but then what does it imply about making predictions in elections? it sounds as though it is just a lucky guess or a fools game. one would hope astrology is capable of more then that.. maybe it isn't~!

zoidsoft wrote:

I’ve shown how the same symbolism can be interpreted both ways in my prediction. Every astrologer should be able to do this and if you can’t see a plausible scenario where either side can win, then either it will be a landslide or you haven’t been practicing astrology long enough.


margherita,

thanks for the the quotes.. i see no mention of the world helical in any of it, so i continue to be curious about what the connection is to this idea of helical rising/setting? i ask this as i want a better understanding of retro and stationary planets within the context of the use of this word 'helical'.. thanks!
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margherita



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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
margherita,

thanks for the the quotes.. i see no mention of the world helical in any of it, so i continue to be curious about what the connection is to this idea of helical rising/setting?


James, Porphirius explicitly mentions the word STATION.

In every case, stations are one of the heliacal phases together with rising and setting. It's the same cycle, a planet starts with rising and ends with setting, and in the middle makes its station. The way it does depends on the fact it is an inner or an outer planet. Chris Brennan has a scheme for Mercury (Venus is the same, not Mars, Jupiter and Saturn) here: http://politicalastrologyblog.com/2012/08/24/mercury-retrograde-and-the-2012-election/

Hope now it is clear,
margherita
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita,

thanks.. the article is going over the same stuff that is always talked about on mercury retro! no discussion of how the impact of a station might actually be unique and whether it could be viewed independent of all the dogma around mercury retro that every astrologer is already familiar with.

let me put it to you and others here this way.. is there a difference between a planet retrograde and a planet that is stationary about to go retro or direct? if so, what is the difference? is so, what is the length of time one would want to consider for defining these terms in an independent manner? for me, someone talking about that would be going over new ground.. otherwise it is all black or white - retro or not..

what did Porphirius say about the STATION of a planet? how long does he consider it lasting and does he offer any unique interpretation associated with the stationary period of a planet? i am still curious..
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margherita



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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


let me put it to you and others here this way.. is there a difference between a planet retrograde and a planet that is stationary about to go retro or direct? if so, what is the difference?


in my opinion there is a difference between a direct or a retro station, because in coming back direct a planet improves its condition, the contrary in the other case.

See for nativities Ptolemy chapter about the quality of the soul, III, 13 (I cannot link, it does not work)
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita,

i agree.. your interpretation of whether it is sr, or sd is in line with the ongoing views on retro being a 'badd' thing.. i am vying for another option - stationary regardless of whether it is turning retro or going direct.. my take is that a station of a planet has a big influence of a chart regardless whether it is sr or sd. the turnaround time with a planet like mercury is a lot quicker then the turnaround time with the outer planets. most astrologers don't seem to give it much attention. as i was saying previously, i don't know how it would differ in natal verses mundane astrology..

thanks for the additional info.
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margherita



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Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
margherita,
i am vying for another option - stationary regardless of whether it is turning retro or going direct.. my take is that a station of a planet has a big influence of a chart regardless whether it is sr or sd. .


I'm trying to say the same...station is an heliacal phase, so it needs a special attention per se .

Then obviously (at least for me) a direct station is better than a retrograde one, but both are important. It is like rising and setting, rising is more beneficial, but setting is important too...
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
.......

on the topic of stationary planets and giving them greater relevance, this is what i have been pushing for, for some time. i mentioned just this in my comments at november 5th thread here http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6959

i think stationary planets are a big deal and as i was saying in the nov 5th post, i think the window for them has to be wider then most astrologers seem to consider - 4 or 5 days perhaps.. just how this might impact mundane astrology as opposed to natal astrology, i am not clear on, but in natal astrology i personally think it is a really big deal. thanks for your comments.

...


Maybe, you need to look at Gen Petraues' chart.
His natal mercury is slow going retrograde ( 7 Nov 1952->20 Nov 1952).
A progressed year in which a planet changes sign or turn direct or retrograde is also important.
Mercury did not change sign on 10 Dec 1952 when it turned direct, but did change sign in Jan 1953 the day corresponding to his current birth year.

This was Petraues' mercury was brewing for Obama but he escaped with the skin of his teeth.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/13/petraeus-scandal-women-general-agent
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