46
If we look at the horary that I asked about the Bush Re-election as President of the USA that Siraxi commented on it should shed some light as to whether this horary was valid due to the debate on this issue.

If you don't enlarge the horoscope and do not re-calculate the chart from astrodienst it tends to stay there:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;lan ... 1351981210

This was addressed a few years back via this Forum in:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewt ... 11e1211ca6

Where Siraxi said:
I've seen a horary on the US presidential elections published on Oct 15 by an astrologer named Clinton Soule on the email list HoraryHour:

QUESTION: Will Bush be re-elected as President in 2004?
TIME: 5:44 pm PLACE: Reno, NV DATE: 10 / 14 / 2004

He delineated this horary chart correctly...

I asked a similar question last year on the presidential election in my country and the horary chart was accurate. I didn't delineate the chart at that time, only afterwards, but the chart was quite clear.

So there seem to be no problem in asking political horary questions as long as the interest is genuine.
I'll get some of the details off of Horary Hour Forum soon and re-walk through that horary. If it was Not valid certain things within that horary should Not have happened as noted from that discussion.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know

47
Geoffrey said:

"Ya-but, the "one" referred to by Lilly in, "If one shall continue in the Office or Command he is in?" is the querent, so creating the necessary link to the 10th house, being the position of Office or Command that the querent currently enjoys.

Clinton, the only way this Lilly reference makes your chart valid is if Clinton Garrett Soule is actually a pseudonym or alter-ego of Barack Obama himself.... so now we know the truth. "

Thanks Geoffrey, having only done two horarys on elections, one can get rusty and forget the methods to be utilized.

In the above horary that I recieved much help from the Horary Hour artists it was decided that since Bush was in office as my President the 10th represented him with Capricorn there and Saturn was cjt the 5th house, which as I understand describes the Presidential election in question in that horary. Bush's office that he sought to keep is the 10th of the 10H, or the actual horary's 7th. The 7H had Libra on the cusp as one can see from the chart in the above post, with Luna in sextile to Venus lord of the derived 10th. But Frawley advocates may include the influence of the Moon first squ Neptune, as the horary's 5th is the election as I came to understand as the fraudulent deception in the election. So as I stated via this thread Congressswomen Boxer and Jones iniated a hearing on the fraudulent election in Ohio which was televised on C-Span that pretty much brought out the fact that Bush was Not re-elcted though he retained his position.

In this particular horary shown in the chart below of Obama's re-election:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid= ... fix=1&ast=

If we use as Geoffrey was trying to say and wake me up that the President's office is the actual question and Not mine(doesn't that ring of Pisces rising Rx Jupiter) then we rotate the 10th to the asc. as the derived house here is actually the horary's 7th with Mercury cjt the N. Node and separating from a 6 minute sextile(Lilly allowed 7 minutes separation) to Venus. And Venus is cjt the derived 10th(Lilly's five degree rule). See Lilly below as he states on page 448:

"If one shall continue in the Office or Command he is in.

You may judge in the same manner if the Lord of the ascendant be joyned to the Lord of the 3rd or 9th, or to a Planet therein, and after separation from him, be joyned to a Planet in any Angle except the 4th."

The Moon then becomes in the derived 3rd and Mark since you have read Anthony Louis, and I don't know where Loius read this but he claims that the planet can connect before either leave a sign. So in Traditional lore does the Moon make that trine to Mercury as it's out of orb as Lilly used Al Buruni's tables of orb or moeitys. For in re-investigating Lilly on this he seems to say Yes Obama will retain the office providing the 6 minute separation and/or the wide trine has an effect.

Lilly also says:

"If the Lord of the 1st or 10th, or Moon commit their disposition to any Planet in an Angle (except he be in the 4th) and that Planet be slow in motion, he shall not be removed from his Office or place of trust, untill that Receiver become Retrograde or approach to Combustion, or goe out of the Signe wherein he is; for much about that time will be removed,..."

Note the derived 10th, the horary's 7th is cjt Venus, and Lilly puts the 'virtue of that planet' in the house by his five degree rule.

Lilly also says in this matter:

"If the Moon be joyned to the Lord of the 10th, and he in the 10th, the Governour or Officer shall not be put from his Office or Dignity."

So if Anthony Louis noted something from the Ancients or Lilly on this that supports the Moon trine Mercury(lord of derived 10H, Obama's office) then Obama should be elected.

So having opened my eyes on this one, I'm going with Johannes and saying Obama retains his office. Yet this is a very tricky one as Rx Jupiter shows which represents myself and Obama who won't have an easy Presidential term due to Transiting Pluto oppositioning the USA Sun.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know

48
Clinton, as you turn the wheels and charts and Presidents over and over, I should like to resolve your question again following once more the as clear as simple rules Frawley gives in The Horary Textbook, pp. 212-215.

You said you are American and not really a follower Obama or Romney, so president Obama gets the 10th, Romney the 4th house.
The Moon is not given to the querent but she "is natural ruler of the people, and so signifies the electorate."

At the first glance the Moon does aspect neither Jupiter, Lord 10, nor Mercury, Lord 4, and thus the "Moon's receptions become important." And as Jupiter is in the house/sign of Jupiter people will reelect Obama.

But there are more testimonies for Obama in my opinion:
1. The square of the Moon with Jupiter. The earlier square of the Moon with Mars seems to hinder this. But as this election chart accords with the usual allocation of state-charts (president in 10), the square of the Moon with Mars does not prohibit her square with Jupiter, because Mars as Lord of the intercepted Aries is Coruler of the ascendent, the people of the USA. Furthermore Moon and Mars will be in mutual reception when they are in square aspect, Moon in the Triplicity of Mars, Mars in the Face of the Moon.
2. Very interesting (Frawley: "Imminent changes of dignity [...] can be crucial"): On the second of November the Retrogradation of Jupiter brought him back into the dignity of his terms - at the same time when Obama managed Frankenstorm Sandy in his Commander in Chief blouson, Jupiter then still receiving the Moon (the voting people. the electorate) in the dignity of his domicile.

As to Mercury / Romney: before the Moon perfects her Square with Jupiter, she enters the terms of Mercury. This would be a small chance for Romney, but this dignity cannot compete against the reception of the Moon in the house/sign of Jupiter.

So Obama should be reelected coming Tuesday.

Johannes

49
Johannes says:
Clinton, as you turn the wheels and charts and Presidents over and over, I should like to resolve your question again following once more the as clear as simple rules Frawley gives in The Horary Textbook, pp. 212-215.

You said you are American and not really a follower Obama or Romney, so president Obama gets the 10th, Romney the 4th house.
The Moon is not given to the querent but she "is natural ruler of the people, and so signifies the electorate."

At the first glance the Moon does aspect neither Jupiter, Lord 10, nor Mercury, Lord 4, and thus the "Moon's receptions become important." And as Jupiter is in the house/sign of Jupiter people will reelect Obama.
Well so far no one on our Forum has defended any argument based upon that Romney will win. And even though Frawley does some questionable methodology compared to the Ancients and Lilly, most accept him as one of the greats in horary lore from the past century.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid= ... fix=1&ast=

So if Frawley utilizes predictions made in horary on mundane matters like elections then many of the Contemporary Traditionalists have to take note as Frawley is not an intermediate in his horary wisdom.

So a speacial thanks to Mark, Paul, on their views and keeping the iron hot on a very controversial issue of 'Can horary Predict in Politics'. And Thanks to Kali, and I hope you'll allow us to critique that election horary later. Thanks to Geoffrey who brought up counter arguments that have somewhat justified this horary debate by enlightening us to Lilly's dear friend and student, Coley whom we all must read. And thank you Johannes for your Lilly insights and the facts John Frawley advocates this usage of horary in elections. And thank you Goca for your input.

As some of you noticed I was rusty at first in my assesment of this horary as I had only asked it about an hour earlier, not truly time enough to digest it. And Geoffrey in sarcasm brought me out of the dark as I don't do Presidential horarys every month and one forgets the details at times that can be embarrassing.

So based upon this horary Obama will be re-elected as President of the USA, and according to Johannes, Romney may be running very close but the people will favor Obama.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-rea ... ?oid=22904